About the Episode

Welcome to episode 33 of Entrepreneurial Outlaws, in today’s episode we are going to be going through some of the common phrases and narratives that we see in the online business community— phrases that have been weaponized, phrases that we frequently see being used during promotions and launches and on sales pages to create an illusion that this investment, this purchase, this program offer, whatever it might be is going to not only give you exactly what you want to need, it’s going to continue to provide you with safety or it’s going to be different than everything else.

This comes from my own experience, but what I also want to say is that you might find some or all of this conversation to be triggering. I want to give you permission right now to just pause and it’s okay, come back when you feel ready, but at the same time, if you do feel that you’re ready to listen to this episode, that you’re ready to dig into some of these phrases and really look at ways in which we can improve our relationship with this terminology and actually do the work and not just use them as a marketing ploy, then this episode is definitely for you. So get comfortable, get your earbuds, and let’s get into episode 33.

Topics discussed in episode #33

Topics Discussed:

  • Some of the common (and weaponized) phrases and narratives that we see in the online business community
  • Why it’s okay to have a small business and how this protects you and your clients
  • How really good, transparent content eliminates the need for a long form sales page
  • Why creating a “safe space” can actually break trust with your audience
  • The importance of leading with your values and beliefs first, plus being willing to have hard conversations
  • Breaking down the concept of know, like, and trust and what we should aim for instead
  • What it truly means to create a space of like minded people
  • Why you should be transparent with your pricing
  • How you can launch and promote your offerings without giving into common narratives

Episode Resources:

Connect with Melanie here:


Speaker 1 (00:03):

Hey friends. Welcome to episode 33 of entrepreneurial Outlaws today's episode. We are going to be going through some of the common phrases and narratives that we see in the online business community phrases that have been weaponized phrases that we frequently see being used during promotions and launches and on sales pages to create oftentimes an illusion that this investment, this purchase, this program offer, whatever it might be is going to not only give you exactly what you want to need, it's going to continue to provide you with safety or it's going to be different to everything else. Now, I think it's important for me to caveat that by saying not everyone is a Dick in the online business space right now, everyone is crappy. You know, everyone is. I'm not and I'm not crappy. And I work with a lot of people who also are doing incredibly ethical and transparent things.

Speaker 1 (01:31):

In fact, I would say that for the most part, anyone who I'm engaged with or collaborating with working with in the online space is ethical, is aware of what is happening right now and is engaged with their own work, whatever that might look like behind the scenes, they're engaged with their own work and they are working to do better. The fact that you're here listening to this podcast tells me that you're doing exactly the same. I also know that it looks different for each of us. We each have our own different are different read books, our own different triggers. We have all experienced different trauma in the online business community. And so this episode is very much based on my own experience, right? That's the truth of it. So there may be things that I don't cover that you have experienced, and there may be things that I mentioned that you haven't experienced, but I think it's really important for us to have this conversation because as I recall this episode right now, there is, there is a shift happening.

Speaker 1 (02:43):

I've been feeling it for a while. I've been doing this work for over a year, talking about the harm and the toxic nature, a narrative that is, has been happening and is happening in the online business community. But I'm also kind of tired of just talking the problems. And I think a lot of other people are too I'm ready for solutions. And I don't think I have all the answers, but I know that I have some when one of the things just recently, when I've really been digging into my own business behind the scenes,

Speaker 2 (03:16):

I was suddenly

Speaker 1 (03:17):

Struck by this realization that my entire business had been built upon this narrative. It had been built upon these strategies and tactics that were seemingly the only way of doing business, but I deeply rooted in weaponized behavior. They are deeply rooted in the oppression and they are not safe for all people. And the reason it took me so long to realize this is because I think to some degree, I was trying to believe that a, I had distanced myself from, you know, these coaches,

Speaker 2 (04:02):

But my

Speaker 1 (04:03):

Fast investments, the first three, yes, three, three and a half years of my business, I was working closely in a, in a bubble

Speaker 2 (04:16):

That's was rooted

Speaker 1 (04:20):

In these big names in online business,

Speaker 2 (04:24):


Speaker 1 (04:26):

Continuing to be quiet are continuing to be silent about the part they play in creating an idea, an illusion of what it means to be successful, but only telling half the truth. Right? So what we have seen in the last few weeks, or the last few days, I should say as again, at the time of recording, this is that this, this is a very, very, it's like a spider web, right? It's like a spider web of toxicity. It's a spider web of harm. It's it's a financial spider web. You know, the more you look at it, the less you can't unsee it. I've been chatting with friends and peers and colleagues in, in, on Instagram, in my DMS. And we've been like, we don't even know. Now we don't even know what the truth is. We don't even know what success can even look like for us, But I'm also reminded that it may begin, right? It may begin. Let's just be honest. It may begin with like Tony Robbins and NLP. I'm just going to say it, it may begin back there, but it ends with us.

Speaker 1 (05:50):

It ends with each of us. It ends with us deciding to do the work, us deciding to change the way we approach business, that we approach marketing. It's our individual walk decisions to change the narrative, to pay the new way. And that's what we do here on entrepreneurial Outlaws. That is what being an outlaw is. It's not just being an outsider. It's not just not fitting in. That's the huge part of at least my experience, but it's about finding people who are doing the work too. And at this point, it's about understanding that it takes time. Relationships are not built upon, Oh my God, she's in my head. Take my money. I mean, that's not how relation at least does know how my relationships work. My relationships take time, right? My relationships take time. I want to get to know people. And that's one of the reasons why for me, I got really comfortable knowing that my business will remain small.

Speaker 1 (07:03):

My business will remain small. It could always be bigger. It could always be more profitable, but after the last year, I'm not willing to burn out. I'm not willing to make myself ill. I'm not willing to not put myself fast and I'm not willing to continue protecting people or ideology that is not aligned with my values because at the end of the day, I'm here to protect my own energy. But I'm also here to protect you all. I'm here to protect my audience, my clients, my students, my customers. Why? Because you were doing the walk and if you're doing the walk, you deserve to be protected when you enter into any kind of space with me and my business.

Speaker 1 (07:58):

So today's episode, I'm going to run through some of the phrases that we see used frequently in the online business community. I'm going to kind of just talk about them again. This comes from my own experience, but what I also want to say is that you might find some or all of this conversation to be triggering. And I want to give you permission right now to just pause and it's okay. And to, you know, come back when you feel ready, but at the same time, if you do feel that you're ready to listen to this episode, that you're ready to dig into some of these phrases and really look at ways in which we can improve our relationship with this terminology and actually do the work and not just use them as a marketing ploy. Then this episode is definitely for you. And as I said, even if you're not ready to listen into this, this episode will be here. Right. So you can come back to it at any time. Okay. So get comfortable, get your earbuds and let's get into episode of three.

Speaker 1 (09:35):

Okay. So one of the main, the main issues I have with this narrative in all my business is that we have been telling people we have been told. And then in turn, we have been telling people for a really long time that there's only one way of doing things. It's the narrative, right? It's, it's, it's a marketing tactic, right? You only give people one option. Don't give them too many links. The idea that we are continuing to reduce people's agency to pick and make a decision. This is one of the reasons why in my own business, I actually consistently have more than one link available on Instagram. And even in my email newsletter, because I'm trying to unravel my own stuff. I'm trying to let go of this idea that people can, people can function. They can only pick one thing. And that one thing has to be me and it has to be the paid option.

Speaker 1 (10:43):

Well, I don't really believe that. I think sure. There are times when we just want to have one solution, but we also have to understand our own audiences capacity. My audience, you guys, you listen right now. You want choice. You want options. Maybe you don't work by the paper thing. Maybe you want the free thing. And it would be really remiss of me to not give you the option. And that is one of the reasons why this idea that we are telling people, this is a thing. This is what you want. This is what you need. And we completely ignore the idea that people can actually make a decision on their own times. I actually think if we do a better job of allowing our content, right, a content, whether it's on Instagram, email, wherever the hell, you're doing your content. If we do a better job as individuals on creating content, that answers questions on creating content that is aligned with our business and the way we do things.

Speaker 1 (11:47):

And it gives people an idea of what we do and who we are and why we do these things in every single post. In every single email, there is less need to limit choice because people who already know, think about some of the investments you've made in your business, especially since you've seen the for what it is. You have probably been more cautious with your investments. You've probably been more cautious with who you give your followers and subscriptions and your money to. I know I have. And one of the things that stands out to me is the, I probably don't even read a sales page. Right? My last investment in my business was to publish my outlook journal. I had followed and known about Sarah stack club mindful productivity blog on Instagram. I will link to her in the show notes and I followed her for some time.

Speaker 1 (12:44):

I knew she had this course. I know people who have published journalism planners through her. I have Sarah's mindful productivity. Brain-Dump planner. I don't think that's the one I have. I've just realized that's probably not. But anyway, I'll link to it in the show notes, but the point being, I have followed Sarah for a while, I know she has this course. So when it came to joining hi chorus, I didn't watch the video, the webinar. I didn't even really look at the sales page. I scroll down to find out, okay. When does the, when did the cool stop, right? The live calls, because I wanted to commit to showing up those cools and how much is this? What's the payment plan? How was what's the layout? Like I already trusted her enough through her content, through our relationships that I didn't need any more information.

Speaker 1 (13:42):

Other than that. Now that's not to say that you don't need a sales page, right? I'm not, I'm not getting into that conversation. That's not to say you don't need a sales page at the end of the day. If you have cold P people who don't know you coming to your business, sure. You need to give them more information. But I think when we can understand that our relationships online, take time, we can understand that people don't need quite as much as we think they do. And if we can do a really great job of explaining things transparently in our content, through our content and through a free walk, then we're already building those relationships, but relationships takes time. So that was something I wanted to just talk about because it might seem like, Oh, well, it's so simple, but I think we just have to get comfortable with allowing time, time for ourselves time for our audiences, time to make decisions, visions the feel good, right?

Speaker 1 (14:40):

Instead of saying to people, there is only one way of doing things. I think for most of us, we're tired of hearing. There is only one way of doing things. We want options. We want to be able to take what we've learned or take what we know and then figure out, well, what, what feels good? What looks right? How does this fit into my life? Right? Because we are able to do that. It doesn't have to be someone else's goals, someone else's life. Because for the most part, a lot of the time people who we have worked with looked up to in the online space, their lives are a million miles away from mine, right? They're a million miles away from mine. I don't know about you, but they're a million miles away from mine.

Speaker 1 (15:28):

And that was one of the pitfalls for me. For the first few years of my online business, I was chasing this ideology. I was chasing these dreams. I was chasing these goals. None of them were mine. None of them are mine. This person who I was looking at and trying to, trying to emulate wasn't anything like me, right? She's nothing like me, her lifestyle, her relationships, her commitments, her goals, her body, because I started out in the health and fitness industry. And that is a huge impact, right? I'm just going to be honest, as far as I'm concerned for me, that was a massive impact in how I was going to be able to build my business because of how I looked comparatively to my peers.

Speaker 2 (16:21):


Speaker 1 (16:21):

It's really important that we get comfortable with that. Right. Get comfortable with time, get comfortable with giving people, agency giving people choice. It's okay. So let's go into some of these phrases and I've been, I've been thinking about this for a really long time. This is one of those episodes I've probably been saying on for for six weeks. I dunno. Just thinking about, okay, what do I really want to say? And the last few days, I have been very vocal on Instagram talking about this because I'm really tired of talking about problems. I want to give solutions, but I'm also really, really angry. And I have to kind of, I have to look at duality, right? That's not something that's easy for me, but I have to be okay with being frustrated and angry, but then also delivering solution.

Speaker 2 (17:08):


Speaker 1 (17:11):

The first phrase I want to talk about is safety

Speaker 2 (17:14):

Space, safe space. Look again,

Speaker 1 (17:20):

I want to say that for many of you listening, you may be thinking, but I do create a safe space where I want to create a safe space. And I'm not saying that you don't, I'm not saying that we can't use the phrase. That's not this point of this episode. This is not to say you shouldn't use this phrase. There's nothing wrong with the phrase. It's the, the issue is where the trust has been broken by people who used the phrase, right? That's what, this was all of this it's through trust, being broken and safety, being broken in this case, by people who have huge audiences, big businesses, but they've, they've broken that trust, right? To create a safe space. Now, this, I was fast aware of the issue, the problem around the phrase safe space last year, because last June, we saw big communities specifically on Facebook. These big communities ran runs right by these big names in online business. And what we saw is people wanting to have a conversation, specifically, black people, indigenous people, people of color, wanting to have a conversation about what was happening with George Floyd and black lives matter

Speaker 1 (18:58):

At the time, what came out of this is that all of a sudden there were people in these communities who didn't want to talk about racism. They didn't want to talk about white supremacy. And what then happened was these administrators or moderators or whatever the hell that cooled all these communities shut down these voices. They shut down comments and said, this isn't that place. We don't talk about this here.

Speaker 3 (19:34):


Speaker 1 (19:38):

That was the first time I had realized was so much of the discomfort and harm and trauma comes into these online communities, specifically groups, Facebook groups, things like that.

Speaker 3 (19:54):


Speaker 1 (19:56):

Constantly, I've always had this kind of frustration with Facebook groups, right? Facebook groups became all the rage in like 20, 2016, 2017 because the Facebook algorithm shifted, right? So Facebook pages no longer got seen. So everyone shifted to Facebook groups. That was the thing. Everyone had to have a Facebook group because the Facebook group didn't have the same impact. And people would see all of your content because they had the notifications on and peoples, and again, Facebook groups have been weaponized, right? So this is the same thing, but the safe space in particular, right? These safe spaces were not safe. Now, if I didn't feel safe as a white cisgender heterosexual woman,

Speaker 3 (20:47):

I can only imagine

Speaker 1 (20:48):

How other people like I don't, I didn't feel safe. And I'm, I am one of those voices who would have been the majority, probably in these groups. And this is what we saw. We saw these communities deciding to make the majority comfortable whilst shutting down everyone else's voice.

Speaker 1 (21:14):

What this did for people who are paying attention for people who have been paying attention. What this did was show us that these guidelines, these safe spaces, these communities are not here for people. They are here to protect the coach, the business owner, the host, the admin whomever. And what we saw is that they will shut down conversations that they deem could impact their bottom line, rather than speaking up, rather than speaking out, rather than sharing their opinion, they would silence others and they would stay silent. So what do we do? Right? What do we do when we want to create a safe space? Because I also, I too want to create a safe space and I believe I am creating safe spaces. However, I cannot determine or decide if a space is safe because the reality is a place is safe until it's not right.

Speaker 1 (22:21):

A community is safe until it's not now. I think it stops if we're not going to be silent by telling people up front what we stand for, what we stand against. It starts with that. And not just every so often and not just hidden somewhere on a website, but like front and center telling people, right. Somebody does because this is something I don't think I'm getting it right all the time. I know I'm not, but I'm willing to keep doing these things and be told when I'm doing it wrong. Because for me and my business, I want to create a safe space. But I also know it's only safe until it's not. And I also know there are ways in which I hadn't even considered that spaces might not be safe.

Speaker 3 (23:13):


Speaker 1 (23:15):

That's the first thing, right? Leading with your values and beliefs and telling people up front, will you stand firm? What you don't stand for

Speaker 3 (23:25):

And then being willing to

Speaker 1 (23:28):

You have those hard conversations, right? That's the other thing,

Speaker 3 (23:34):


Speaker 1 (23:36):

If someone turns round to you and says, Hey, I want to work with you, but I don't agree with you. And here's why are you going to say no? That's, that's a reality. Are you going to say no? Because if you're not willing to say no, then you have to reconsider whether that space is safe. So that's the first thing. The other way of doing this is especially when you are, if you are facilitating conversations, maybe it's Facebook lives. Maybe it's on a zoom calls. Maybe it's coaching, especially in group coaching or group mentoring or whatever you want to call it. If you are having these group conversations you need to understand that you don't know everyone, right? The bigger the group gets. You don't know everyone. And even if you're like me and you want to do your best to know everybody, you don't know everybody, you don't know everything about them. You don't know what signifies for them, a safe space, right? You can do your best, but you don't know. So you need to give people permission to tell you, and then you need to deal with it.

Speaker 1 (24:51):

A friend of mine recently suggested as well that you could have a traffic light system, right? So when a group community cool, you can have, especially if you're doing kind of possible development, self development, work, kind of conversations we have here on the podcast to create a traffic light system, while you can say, okay, here's the traffic light Lake. This is what green means. This is what Amber is. This is what red means. And if any time you think you feel that this conversation is bordering on a trigger, then I want you to be out. But to say green, like this is getting towards a place where I don't feel good, comfortable by giving people permission, honoring their decisions, holding back judgment and be willing to have the conversation. But I just don't think we can. Plasta on a sales page or talk about creating safe spaces. We have to talk about how we are creating safe spaces, because honestly, no one gives a about the safe space anymore. Like don't tell me you're creating a safe space. Tell me how you're going to create a safe space. Tell me what you're doing, make it really clear and visible.

Speaker 1 (26:13):

The next phrase is meet you where you are. I thought a lot about this and yeah, in reality, you can't meet everyone where they are. I don't care how nice you are or how well, you know, your audience. You can't meet everyone where they are. I don't know about you. I've had so many times in my business where I have probably thought that I'm meeting people where they are, and then they are not where I thought they were, or then don't fall into my idle client. And I'm like, I don't know what to do with you. I don't know what to do with you. Right? I don't know how to deal with this. I had this happen a couple of times back in my health and fitness business. So back in health and fitness, I used to, I had a short term program where we focused a lot on adding protein into your diet because we're not going to get into the science of it.

Speaker 1 (27:02):

But anyway, that was the short term program. And I had a couple of women join this program and they were vegan. I don't know. It was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do with you. I'm not Meagan. I'm not, I don't know vegan recipes. I'm not vegan. This was totally out of my, let's just say comfort zone. I couldn't meet them where they are, because I didn't know what to do with them. Right. So that's a very, that's a very small way of explaining that. But what I'm trying to get through is we can't know every single person who's going to read ourselves page, read our content, that we're going to be able to meet them where they are. Instead, what I want us to learn to do is to say, okay, you know what? I'm going to do my best to meet you where you are. But this is like, this is where we're at. This is what I do, right. This is where the transparency is super important. This is what I do. This is who I've worked with in the past. And I'm going to give you the choice to decide if you want to meet me here.

Speaker 3 (28:07):


Speaker 1 (28:10):

And also being okay, if you start to work with someone and you're like this isn't going to work because I don't really, like I carried on working with my vegan clients and, you know, for the most part it was okay. But I think now I'd probably say to them, you know, I just, I don't think this. I don't think we're going to get to where you want to be. I think you'd be better off working with this kind of pass and someone who is also vegan and knows how to meet you where you are. Right. Next one is talking about again, communities and saying that you're going to, you're not going to be a number.

Speaker 1 (28:54):

I used to be really attracted to that phrase because in my corporate job, my last corporate job, before I became self employed I literally had a number. I literally had a six digit number that was assigned to me. And so when I came into the online business community and there was lots of talk about you, won't be a number in a group. You'll be know, we'll engage with you and we will have conversations and you will get my time. But so that really appealed to me, right? Because I was like, well, I've been a number for like the last decade. But then I found that I was still just, I wasn't necessarily a number, but I was just like a Facebook handle. I wasn't, you know, my questions want answered in the capacity. I thought they would be that wasn't their, with the engagement that they had seemed to be before my credit card was taken.

Speaker 3 (29:46):


Speaker 1 (29:48):

And so, again, it's same as same vein is that we need to start talking about what this actually means to us as business owners and then how to deliver that to our audience and to our students and to our clients and to our customers. What does it mean to not be a number,

Speaker 3 (30:07):

Right. And how are you going to maintain that?

Speaker 1 (30:10):

Because the reality is if you have a Facebook group of hundreds, we didn't even need to get to the Facebook groups with thousands. If you've got a Facebook group with hundreds of people, you're already at the point where you can't keep track of everybody, this is when that safe space meet you, where you are not number, stuff really, really matters.

Speaker 3 (30:34):

Right. Right. Right.

Speaker 1 (30:36):

Only is important at that point because you cannot physically keep track, especially if it's an engaged group. Yay. Amazing. That's what we all dream of having engaged conversations and spaces. But as the host, as the admin, as the moderator, how are we ensuring that people had, how we'll be creating safe spaces, how we meet in the weather on how are we ensuring that they don't feel like there are a number. So many people I have met over the last few years who have invested in these big, big business coaching programs, where they are in a Facebook group and they have questions and that questions don't get answered. Even when they tag the admin or the host, they still don't get answered. Right. So for us, it's a case of looking at these things and saying, okay, what do I need to do differently? And if I've experienced these things, the negative impact of these things in my business, through my own investments, what did I not like? And what can I do differently?

Speaker 3 (31:39):


Speaker 1 (31:39):

What did I not like? And what can I do differently? The next one we talked about this before on the show. It's the good old know, like, and trust, this has come up a huge amount of times. You don't. I always found no, like contrast is kind of strange concept because when people first met me tip, when people first meet me, when people first meet me

Speaker 3 (32:04):

In real life,

Speaker 1 (32:07):

People tend to think that I'm shy. I am shy, but people tend to think I'm shy and that I'm cold. Right. It comes across as like some, for some reason, in my experience that shyness that quiet or perceived as cold, it's perceived as me thinking I'm better than people. And I don't know why. I don't know what happens there. I would love to say, it's, it's more about them than it is about me, but I'm going to take responsibility because I know this about myself. That that is a narrative that people have said not to me, of course not. It's like been said behind my back anyway. So I always have around the concept of know, like, and trust really confusing because I know that in real life, in situations where maybe I feel uncomfortable or I'm like on my own, or I don't know people or whatever the situation might be in the pause, I've come across as like not likable.

Speaker 1 (33:11):

And as I've got older and once I started my online business, I'm kind of, Hey, I'm okay with like that B I don't really tend to put myself in situations that make me uncomfortable. Like I try not to be there. And if I am that I'm able to go, okay, this is not for me. I'm going to leave this space or this community or this conversation or whatever it might be. Because I don't have the capacity to be around. People train me in that way, but I know what it's like to be that person at a table. And everyone else seems to know each other. And you just sit in there, like, I don't know anybody. Right. And I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm kind of socially awkward. So the idea of know, like, and trust always seemed very, very strange to me. And there's no like, can trust also stems from the idea or the, the original, at least what I was taught the ideology is that you, you build this know like, and trust and you need a thousand true fans.

Speaker 1 (34:16):

I don't know if you've had this before this idea that a thousand true fans is all you need. Right? So here's, what's interesting about this is the thousand true fans thing. And I don't, I can't remember. I'll find who actually, where this comes from and we'll put it in the show notes and you know, we'll reference it. But this thousand true fans, ideology is has, is definitely in my opinion, be again, weaponized to this idea of look, it's only a thousand people. That's really simple. But the idea is that you have a thousand true fans and these true fans of people who will buy your book, they'll buy it in hardback and paperback, and they'll buy the Kindle version and they'll buy the audio book and they'll buy your CD, your binal and everything else. Right. They'll go to all of your shows that buy your merchandise.

Speaker 1 (35:06):

So the first thing is this ideology comes from, or at least was rooted in the idea of physical products, right? I will sit here and say, there are a handful of musicians and I'm probably a true fan. I have the download, the CD, the t-shirt, the vinyl handful of musicians, because I mean, to be fair, I couldn't afford to do it for every musician. I like, but there are a handful of who I would do that for. So the normal I can trust then became a key need to get people to know you, to like you. And that helps to trust you. You remember back in episode, it is two

Speaker 3 (35:50):


Speaker 1 (35:52):

I want to say anyway, I'll link to in the show notes. But I sat down with Mikey Patterson, a small business boss, and we talked about know, like, and trust. And as she said, most P most influences. And as she calls them celebrity entrepreneurs, we'll kind of skip elements of the know like, and trust, right? They, they build their brand on, well, supposedly relate-ability they build their brand on relate-ability right. I'm relatable. You should know me because I'm just like you, but they kind of skip areas of the know like, and trust.

Speaker 1 (36:29):

And then when you don't become their biggest fan, they just drop you. You're not who cares. Right. So there's so many problems with the know, like, and trust and know I can trust is really just dead. Now. I really, the only way I think we can use it is to know like, can trust ourselves in our businesses as business owners. That to me is where this lies. We need to get to know what we want and what we need as a business owner, we get to, we need to like ourselves as a business owner, right? Which comes from unpacking all of this and deciding what we're going to stand with, deciding what we're not going to compromise on that. Because for me, when I'm doing stuff in my work, I was doing stuff in my business that was unethical or didn't align with my values.

Speaker 1 (37:20):

Didn't align with the kind of business I thought I would have. I didn't like myself. I didn't like who I was as a business owner. I didn't like my business. I didn't like how I was showing up on social media. I didn't like tasks in my business because I felt like I was performing all the time. I didn't know that's what it was. But now I'm like, I was performing. I was playing a pot, but I thought I should. And the trust, well, the trust has to be rebuilt with ourselves. We have to understand that we need to do this with compassion. This is not our fault. Right? It's not your fault, but you have a choice now to change the way these things are. And it will take time. It's ongoing walk, but the know like, and trust that we once used is just broken.

Speaker 3 (38:12):

Right. It's just broken.

Speaker 1 (38:15):

And I know that if we can build businesses, the built on transparency and honesty and respect, we're going to be in a much better position moving forward.

Speaker 1 (38:28):

So there's a couple of other phrases I want to talk about like minded people. We see this a lot, right? You're going to be in a community safe space. And you're going to be with like minded people. Like-Minded business owners, like minded women, like minded coaches. We see this a lot again. I'm not saying you can't say that, but the same as I'm going to meet you where you are, do we know what that, that like-mindedness is truly is how are we facilitating that? How are we pre-qualifying that right? How are we pre-qualifying that these people are like-minded? Do we have a way of recognizing that? Or are we just using it? Because we think that's what people want to hear. And this is the important thing. A lot of these phrases in the past, I have used them without giving them any thought at all phrases that I'm like, well, that's because that's what people want to hear. People want to feel safe. People want to be, you know, they want to know that I'm going to meet them where they are. They don't want to feel like a number. And they want to be with people who they, who they, you think get it right. They're doing the same thing as them.

Speaker 1 (39:49):

But in my experience, I've had communities, I've had paid groups where yeah, they might be like-minded, but they're all doing the same things. I've also been in communities where the I've built with. There is a whole mixture of people who are not like-minded. And I did the exact thing that we talked about at the beginning. I buried my head in the sand. I avoided it. Right. I avoided it. So yes, you might be trying to create a space with like-minded people, but again, understanding what that means, considering what that truly means. And how do you show that? How do you explain that are in the best and most transparent way for your business? And finally, let's talk about price. I was having this conversation just recently with a couple of peers, like-minded PIs, and we were talking about our businesses. We were talking about our experience this year in 2021, that promotions and launches and selling. It just, it feels a little bit hotter than it did 12 months ago. Again, that's my experience. That was the experience on this, on this, within the few of us that were talking and the conversation came up about affordability, right? Creating affordable offers.

Speaker 1 (41:20):

We talked, we talked for a little while about this and about the idea that creating different products or offers that meet people where they're at right. Coming back, you know, meeting the weather at financially. And then I played devil's advocate and was like, well, how do we know that? Right? How do we know that? Right? Just because everyone says that like, well, $17, $7, $27, like charm pricing. Like, how do we, how do we know what people are at? How do we know what is affordable?

Speaker 3 (41:55):

And someone said,

Speaker 1 (41:58):

Price, inclusivity. And I was like, well, first of all, that feels so much more expensive to me. And we see this a lot, right? We see this with, especially in the last year, we've seen this with people doing more and more pay what you can or a sliding scale payment extended payment plans. We've seen, there's a number of ways in which we can create price inclusivity. And I think that's really important

Speaker 3 (42:27):

Because somebody's

Speaker 1 (42:28):

Budget isn't necessarily our business, right? It's not our business, but what we can do as business owners is be transparent and upfront about pricing and costs and investment.

Speaker 3 (42:45):

This is especially

Speaker 1 (42:46):

Important if we are service-based business owners or coaches, here's why I'm saying that because probably any other person listening product based businesses. If you sell digital products, if you sell artwork or jewelry, or you're a designer, there is no way you're hiding your prices. At least I can't imagine you are the coaching industry in particular, but also services.

Speaker 3 (43:18):

This is

Speaker 1 (43:18):

The only industry where we are. So we have been sold the idea that we have to hide our pricing. And I have a lot of thoughts on this and I don't, you know, they're not necessarily substantiate in anything other than my own experiences and thoughts. The first thought I have is

Speaker 1 (43:36):

If we're so eager to hide our prices, right? We can't have prices on our sales page. Instead we lead with the idea of get on a call with me and have a discovery. Cool. The discovery call in town, being a, an objection. Cool. Right? It's not even a discovery call. It's a cool where I'm going to, I'm going to challenge your objections and what we see again, the, the, the weaponized behavior is coaching people into paying, getting people. It's almost like it's not even a discovery call. Cause it's almost, at this point, it's like sales scripted. That was what I was taught by my coach back in like 2019, where like we were given sales scripts, how to control the cool, how to coach people to speak to their husbands, right? Because, or because people would say, well, I need to speak to my husband. And we were taught how to coach people, okay. Manipulate people.

Speaker 3 (44:39):

So this idea

Speaker 1 (44:44):

That we hide our prices that we know upfront about what something costs or even like, well, the Stein prices

Speaker 3 (44:52):


Speaker 1 (44:53):

This not because the industry is so unregulated. And because for the most part, they are overpriced. There are a lot of coaching programs that as far as I'm concerned, that just overpriced, like, what the hell are you going to give me for this kind of investment? Again, not the case for everyone, but we have to be really self-aware of this. And so as for us, the solution is to be transparent, to be honest, talk about your pricing. And if you feel really uncomfortable sharing the price on that page, then you need to do some work that you, right. You need to look at. Why am I so uncomfortable to talk about this price? Is it because this price doesn't feel good? Is it because of something else? Is it because I I'm, I don't feel like I'm worthy of this value or is it because I'm afraid to ask people, these are different things, right?

Speaker 1 (45:59):

These are different conversations we can have with ourselves because in some cases it might be that we need to go inward and look at, okay, what does this come from? Why am I afraid to ask for this amount of money? When I know that it's worth that, if it's because we have just plucked a random number out, or we have overinflated the price of something, and we don't believe it to be worth that, not because of our self-worth, but because we actually genuinely don't believe that it's worth that because there's a whole lot of people still teaching you just to raise your prices without any real, without any real research, then that's a different, that's different work to be doing. But again, we have to understand it. We can have different ways of managing pricing. We can offer price inclusivity in a number of ways, right?

Speaker 1 (46:52):

Having a product suite that allows people to choose that path right, and, and get value from whatever it is that they are buying. And I thought a lot about this just recently when I created the outlook channel and published it and sold it in the pre-sale because inevitably I got to the point where I had to decide how much was I going to charge for this journal? And I was charging for in my currency, which is pounds. And I looked it from the point of view, okay, what other journalists have this like this going forward? Because I really think when you're selling a product is somewhat easier to price because you can compare it to other things in the market. You can look at it and say, okay, well, what would I, what would I pay for this? You know, if I went into a bookstore and I sold this there, what would I pay for it?

Speaker 1 (47:50):

And so I priced it based on that. I also looked to the currency confession because luckily KTP, which is who I published it through, shows you how it will be priced in other currencies. So I look to my other two main currencies that I thought most people are going to buy it in. And I was like, okay, that still feels good for me, but I still spent some time seeing with it changing, Oh no, I should do this. Now I should do that. And I was like, we spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on things that we either don't use or that don't bring us value. And I'm afraid to parse a 15 pound journal that I know is valuable. And I was like, this is how up this industry has got. Right? This is how up it's got that. We don't even know how to price our own work.

Speaker 1 (48:43):

Right. We don't know how to press our own work. And this just feeds into that narrative of the financial goals and the financial, the financial stability and inclusivity of businesses. So when it comes to creating something that we think is affordable, we have to just check in with ourselves, right? Are we really living and breathing that, are we being transparent about pricing, right. We being transparent about pricing. Are we being transparent about why something, why we believe something is worth that we don't know saying you have to sit there and tell everybody, well, this is how much time I put into it. But it's really important that if we're going to offer things that we feel are affordable, that we feel meet people where they're at. We need to really look at the ways in which we're doing that. Be up front with our pricing.

Speaker 1 (49:33):

Even if it just says stop pricing stops at right. Cause you don't go to a grocery store without looking at prices. The prices are right there in front of us. Right? The same with most stores, the only places just to cut to me, the only places I have been to where pricing is to some degree hidden is if you go to, to one of those like designer, accessory shops, like a handbag store, or like a it's like what the hell are they called? Oh, I can't think what the cool, but these like these departments either in a department store or these like individual stores, designer stores, especially for handbags and like wallets and things like that. They typically like hide the pricing inside the bottle. Like they don't have a price label on their beautifully curated and cohesive stool. Right? If you go to like Michael coolers, for example, it doesn't have the price of that handbag or that wallet right up front, you have to like dig into the pockets to find the pricing. Right. And the sales section is like hidden away at the back, right? Like, no, you have to come and find me. I'm not going to put this up front. So this is, I don't go into many designers too. I mean, I don't go to any stores currently, but that's the only place I can think the pricing is still bad. You just have to look for it. Right. Do you still have to look for it? But if you go to buy a car, those prices are like front and center stock on the front of that,

Speaker 3 (51:11):

You know exactly what you're getting. Right.

Speaker 1 (51:13):

You know, going in there with a budget of a certain amount and somebody showing you a Tussler and like you're test driving it. And then you find out that it's like 25,000 pounds over your budget, right. You go in mind with, okay, this is my budget. And this is what I want. And you've probably done some research. We get to treat our businesses like that. Right. We get to treat businesses like that and we can encourage other people to almost treat other businesses in that way. Right. Be upfront, be transparent, be honest about all of these things that we are trying to create because the trust is broken. And if we want to work with people who

Speaker 1 (52:01):

We want, if we want to work with people who trust us, if we want to, we want to work with like minded people. We want to ensure that people are safe and that they're not just a number. Then we need to be really, really transparent and realistic about what that takes, what kind of work we have to put into it, right. It's not as simple as, Oh my God. She's in my head. Take my credit card because at least for me, I'm really cautious of that. Now I'm really cool. I'm not going to just handle that.

Speaker 3 (52:36):


Speaker 1 (52:37):

Bank details on my credit card. Even if it's a $27 investment, in fact, I'm turned off by those kinds of things. Right. And maybe your audience are too. I don't know. But you need to think about that. So I hope that today's episode has given you some solutions. It's giving you some thoughts, some ideas of ways in which you can, if you've been feeling, because for me, I've been feeling really, really crunchy about all these things. How do I put together a sales page? How do I launch, how do I promote something without feeding into these behaviors, without encouraging these behaviors? How do I do these things while standing within my values and my beliefs and I, and I think this is how right. Honesty and transparency are a huge part of this, but I think he comes back to understanding in our own businesses, what are these things truly mean to us?

Speaker 1 (53:32):

Yes. And if we don't really believe them, then don't use them. Because as I said this many times in my business where I've used some of these phrases and I haven't even considered what it would take, haven't even considered what it would look like, but it's no longer about just putting these phrases on a sales page or in an email or on social media. We have to live and breathe them. We have to really deliver on them. We have to show people what we are willing to do to actually meet these standards. And the standards might feel really high. And you might get off at times because you're like, these are just doing what they want and they're making loads of money. That's great, but that's their business. That's not our business. This ends with us, this, this toxic and harmful behavior that has been fed through the coaching industry.

Speaker 1 (54:28):

It ends with us ends with our businesses, our launches, our sales copy. We get to lead the way forge the path that we didn't have, but we have to believe that it's possible. And we have to keep persevering. I know it's hard. I get it. But it's, it's the way forward. If we want to run these kinds of businesses, it's the way forward. So I hope I've offered you some solutions today, right? I'm going to continue to look at the ways in which we can solve some of these problems in our own businesses, right? The only way to solve the problem overall is by solving the problems in our own businesses. It starts with the individual work. It becomes the collective work, but it doesn't start with collective. We can't just show up and talk about it. We have to actually do it and then we can talk about it, then we can share it.

Speaker 1 (55:27):

So I want to just say, thank you so much for listening in to today's episode. If you have any questions or thoughts, or if you have like anything about this episode, please come over to Instagram. It's entrepreneurial underscore Outlaws, head on over there and say, hello, if you're not already following, but also let me know what your thoughts are, how what's your experience with these phrases, both in your business or as an investor. Let me know what your experience is. And in next week's episode, episode 34, I'm going to be talking about the power of self-inquiry. I talk about self-inquiry a lot on the show. If you follow me on social media, you will have seen me talk about this. It was a huge part of why I created the entree, the outlet channel, and it's a huge part of my business, a huge part of my own growth it's personal and professional development. But I think sometimes we can be really unsure. What really is self-inquiry is it just journaling? And I'm going to say yes or no. And I'm also going to tell you all about it in next week's episode. So make sure you join me in episode 34, as we dive into self-inquiry the power of self-inquiry and how you can leverage it in your own business until next time Outlaws.