maggie patterson

About the episode

Hey friends, welcome to episode number 28 of entrepreneurial Outlaws. Today, we are joined by Maggie Patterson of Small Business Boss. She is going to be sitting down with me to talk about building self-trust in business. Now in today’s episode, as you’ll learn, we have a lot of similar opinions and thoughts around what is going on in the online business space when it comes to narratives, when it comes to the toxic cultures that are being created, and also the problematic strategies and marketing that is being used to woo us and capture us into constantly spiraling into debts and distrust and overthinking within our businesses.

So Maggie and I sat down to talk about really everything and anything to do with trust as a business owner, how she ended up in the online business space and what that journey has taught her. We also talk a little bit about celebrity entrepreneurs and some of the intersections between cults, MLMs, and online business. Maggie works with corporate clients in tech and professional services through her agency, Scoop Studios, and she also runs Small Business Boss, where she mentors people who are tired of the status quo of online business.

Today’s conversation is expansive. And I feel like we could have spoken for hours, but sit back and enjoy this episode, which is episode 28 with Maggie Patterson.

Topics discussed in episode #28

maggie patterson

Topics Discussed:

  • How Maggie arrived in the online business space and immediately started calling out unethical business models and tactics
  • Why trust is the antidote to fear based marketing and business tactics
  • Breaking the myth of constantly needing to invest in yourself and go into debt to be successful in business
  • Remembering that owning your business is a long game and we need to let our decisions reflect that
  • The different entrepreneurial archetypes and how to see through them

About Maggie:

Maggie Patterson is a communications strategist, business growth consultant, and the founder of content marketing agency, Scoop Studios. With two decades of experience, Maggie has spent her entire career in client services and has been a successful entrepreneur for over 15 years.

As the creator of Small Business Boss, she works with service-based business owners both one-on-one and in group programs to help them find clients, get paid, and build a business that serves them. She’s the host of the BS-Free Service Business podcast, has been on stage at events such as New Media Expo, Podcast Movement, and the Conquer Summit, and her work has been featured in leading publications such as, Fast Company and

Episode Resources:

Connect with Melanie here:

maggie patterson


Speaker 1 (00:02):

Okay, so welcome to entrepreneurial Outlaws. Maggie. I'm so excited for you to be here and for everybody to listen into this conversation,

Speaker 2 (00:11):

I'm really excited to be here. Cause I know you and I have lots to talk about even judging by our pre-conversation

Speaker 1 (00:18):

Right. We were just talking before off an hour and it was like, okay, let's save some stuff. Let's save some stuff for the interview. Okay. So could you introduce yourself for everybody listening for the outlets, listening, who don't know who you are? Take a moment to introduce yourself and then we'll start this conversation.

Speaker 2 (00:34):

So I am Maggie. I am a communications and marketing professional. My kind of sub area in that is, or two things is I run a copywriting agency. We do a ton of content production for tech and professional services companies. And I also run a secondary second company called small business boss, which is really designed for service-based business owners. And as I say to my friends all the time, I call out BS on the internet. Like it's my full-time job,

Speaker 1 (01:03):

Right? Yes, I am. I said to somebody recently that I'd had, you know, you shouldn't put in your buyer and your Instagram by something you wouldn't say at a dinner party. And my Instagram bio says professional sniffer. And I was like, I'm so going to introduce myself as that identifies like, watch me, that's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:24):

I'm be like, who, what dinner party are you going to? That you can't say that to. That doesn't sound fun.

Speaker 1 (01:29):

Well, exactly. But yeah, I was, yeah. I a hundred percent agree. And I, I dunno what this is. I guess a side note I was saying to somebody the other day, I feel like we've created this like independently, not together, but we've created this. Like sub-niche where it's like identifying of, of business coaching and coaching industry and business industry and things like that, because it's really hard to know where this fits in specifically because it's, it just covers so much, so many areas.

Speaker 2 (02:04):

Yeah. I think it's interesting. Cause there's this thanks to 2020 and many different factors converging. There's definitely been this increased, I would say appetite and awareness for it. And it's been interesting. Cause I went back for me. I went back to some blog posts and I was like, Oh, let's talk about this in 2014. I mean, I think that's just because of how I arrived here in the online space. Like I saw pretty quickly what was going on and how dysfunctional it was because I had worked with companies in marketing, in sales for so many years. I was like no one else does these things what's happening? Why, what, what, why would we do that? That makes zero sense. But the stuff becomes so normalized that we all are trained to accept it. And you know, I think it's really important that no one feels bad about it. I think, you know, as we divest from certain things we have to look at, okay, I did the best I could in the and go from there.

Speaker 1 (03:01):

Yeah. Yeah. So I was curious about this, cause I didn't know this about your story. I knew that you had been working in the online business space for quite some time. It had been talking about this for quite a while, but I wasn't sure how you'd kind of arrived at this. So you actually, so you didn't, you kind of came in and were like, what is going on here? Like you showed up. It's like, what is this crap?

Speaker 2 (03:23):

Yeah. So I enrolled up in the online business space kind of late 2012. And I had started working for myself in 2005. And before that I had been in a professional consulting capacity in an agency. So I had literally spent my entire career like, you know, 10 plus, probably 15 years at the point I arrived in online business, working in marketing, working with sales teams and just being, you know, really entrenched with small, to midsize, even some larger enterprise clients. And I looked at things and online, I was like, okay, this is really intriguing to me because I do think this is how the businesses model is going. You know, like I had been on the forefront front, a lot of my clients, like I was the one who brought blogging into their organization. So I knew that I kind of had to stay abreast of things.

Speaker 2 (04:09):

So once I started getting into the online space, I was like, Oh, this is a really interesting treatment of email marketing. Oh. But wait, there's all these problems here. So I think because of that, I had a very, I had a very short journey into some of the bad tactics because I was like, wait, this is wrong. We can't do this. And you know, I tried for quite some time to kind of have online, you know, very launch driven businesses as my clients and I was dreadfully unhappy. So that again, that was a very short chapter.

Speaker 1 (04:42):

And when you say launch driven, do you mean like the typical open cart, close cart, 10 days go crazy kind of launched.

Speaker 2 (04:51):

Yeah, the madness. And I was just not cut out for that cause I was like, literally you're launching a mastermind, no one, like this is not brain surgery, everyone calmed down. Like I don't have time for this drama in my life. And you know, a lot of coaches, coaching coaches to be coaches. Like I had a front row seat to a lot of stuff behind the scenes there really just major turnoff.

Speaker 1 (05:16):

Okay. So I'm really interested in this because we do have different kind of entry points into this. Which I think is really fascinating. And honestly, I mean, I, I would love to have very honest conversation with these people that do these launches because I just I've tried them on years on years on years and never again, it's just not happening. That is not how I'm running my business either. But one of the things I have been consuming your content for, I don't know, maybe like six months to a year, I'm not sure how long we've been connected on Instagram, but I'm so fascinated kind of watching your conversations and your content evolving as well. And it's been interesting because one of the things that you've been talking about a little more recently is trust and trust being the antidote to this, to this, this narrative that's being fed to online business owners. Can you talk a little bit more about why it's the antidote and how, how you see it being used?

Speaker 2 (06:25):

Yeah. So when you look at fear and I mean, I'm sure everyone listening to this podcast has seen these tactics in play if not been impacted them. And fear is really it's coming from a negative place. It's playing on our worst insecurities. It's making us feel not good enough. And fear is a very, very, very powerful, like if not the most powerful motivator. So, you know, there's a reason sales and marketing and the way online business is done with fear because it gets people into action and buying and doing things. But here's the thing, fear is not a great motivator because it's going to result in a whole host of other issues down the road. So I started, you know, when I started having these conversations really, really actively, I kept having people showing up on my inbox and my DNS, they were like, but Maggie, you know, this is great that you're pointing it out, but like, what do we do about it? I was like, well, what do we do about, we just do things like the way they're done in the normal world.

Speaker 2 (07:26):

I think for me, that was just, I was just like, kind of like, well, what do you mean? What did we do about it? You just do business like normal corporations and, you know, normal people do in the real world and people are like, but I don't know what that means. I like literally have no. And I was like, Oh, so I started really digging into, you know, based on my background in communications and in marketing, like, well, what are the things that really are the common threads of what I see in the work I've done for years, working with clients that I see my clients doing. And I'm like, Oh, interesting. It all comes down to trust. So then I did a Maggie style, deep dive because I can't just, you know, go, go shallow on a topic. I was have to go deep.

Speaker 2 (08:08):

And I was like, Oh wait, this is, this is really truly the thing because business is about relationships and you cannot have any type of relationship without trust. So, you know, what are the elements of trust? How do we, how do we use this trust driven approach as this way to tether our strategies or tactics, our actions back to putting that relationship first and really looking at how are we going to do business in a way that actually feels good? Like I think, yeah, you can do a fear based tactic, but you're going to feel like garbage or you're just going to resist doing it. So I didn't start business to do things that way. And I'm pretty sure no one else did either. It feels bad and I don't want any part of it.

Speaker 1 (08:47):

Yeah. I, so, you know, I so agree. And we were talking about this a bit before we started pressing record that the word trust, like we were saying, it feels like we have to work that much harder. And these are conversations that I've been having with people like, you know, no, I can trust, well, we kind of need to replace that likeability because no one cares. Like it's, it's, it's, it's really about the relate-ability and I'm also, I would love to get your thoughts on something, the idea of people coming into your world and finding you on Instagram or finding a podcast or wherever it may be, and just falling in love with your content and what you do and handing over their credit card. Like this is the, this is the myth that I was originally sold on. Like it's easy to make money.

Speaker 1 (09:36):

You can always make more money just to build that know like, and trust be consistent and people will kind of just fall over you to give you money. Well, that has not been my experience. And secondary to that. I feel as though a lot of that trust has been broken with the way these, these coaching tactics. And as you were saying, like coaches, teaching coaches to be coaches, to be coaches that has kind of fed into this lack of trust. And so a lot of what we have been taught to do in the online business space is not working anyway because no one trusts anyone. Like, I feel like nobody trusts anybody anymore. It's like really hard to know. And you have to, as you were saying, build those relationships.

Speaker 2 (10:26):

Yeah. I think what's been interesting. And I'm sure you've seen this too. Melanie is that, you know, I have to work so much harder with my potential clients. I know my clients have to work. If they work in this online space, I have to work so much harder for their clients to can, you know, not convince them. I don't like the word convince, but like to build that relationship so that they feel confident. And I think what happens is, you know, we initially arrive in this world, we build up, buy into the dreams. We believe we need to keep investing in our business. And in those initial stages, I know I did it. I'm sure many of your listeners have done it. You know, we get trapped in this cycle of thinking, well, maybe this will be the one that this investment is going to be the one.

Speaker 2 (11:04):

And we get trapped in this sunk cost fallacy. So we spend this time trying to like make the decisions, right. We keep spending. And then eventually we get to the end of our rope. We're just at the end of the tether. And we're like, forget it. I'm done. I trust no one. And once that trust is broken, it's doing damage, not just to that person. And you know, the financial and emotional impacts of it. It's doing damage to us as an industry because once someone has trust issues and their trust has been broken, it's really hard to recover from that. I mean, we've all seen this play out in our personal lives. It happens the same way in our business relationships. You know, once we have trust issues, good luck coming back from that, like we're not going to therapy with someone that we just met on the internet.

Speaker 2 (11:50):

So I think the assumption of no, like trust is exactly what you said. It no longer works in the same way, because trust is shaky. Like, I don't really care if I like you per se, I better respect you. That's far more important. The no part is the easy part. The other too much, much harder, so much harder. And a lot of the way online businesses, if you really start watching this, what they try to do is they have that discover, you know, that point of awareness where they get to know you, they skip over the building, the respect and the likeability relate-ability and go right to trust. And then they basically gamified that to erode your trust so that you trust them, they take away your own. Self-Trust like when someone is pressuring you to buy something, that's not about building trust with you, that's about eroding any trust in yourself so that you hand over your bees or your MasterCard.

Speaker 1 (12:50):

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I thought about this recently in the terms of, we have to like switch know like, and trust around. So instead of know, like knowing and liking and trusting of business that we want to invest in, we need to fast like, bring that back to ourselves. Like no, like, and trust ourselves first, because that trust has, we don't trust ourselves to either make the right decision, make, take the next step. How to decide which you know, where we should be talking about our business or how we should do that. This there's so much information, which can be great. But at some point it becomes overwhelming because I think a lot of us, as well as entrepreneurs very naturally want to, we want to absorb everything like these little sponges we want to take in all this information. But then we take in a lot of excess information along the way that we don't need, or there isn't right for us.

Speaker 1 (13:47):

But like you said before, because it's repetition, it's constantly being told the same stuff. It's really hard for it. We only know what we know. And then it's really hard for us to make a decision outside of that. And I just recorded an episode where I talked about my own journey through this. And one of the experiences I had with you was that you were speaking on, is this kind of constant investing in ourselves and spending money. Because what I found was the deeper I went into this, the more money I put up because I was like, well, it has to be the next thing. There has to be something I'm missing. I put more and more money up. I go into more and more debts. The more overwhelmed I became, the harder it became, the more I struggled. It didn't get any easier until as you said, I got to the end where I was just like, I call it my, this. I was like, oops.

Speaker 2 (14:38):

And that, that moment. Like it, some for some people it's a fast realization and some people it's slow. And I would say for anyone who's listening, who's add that, you know, that journey of continuing to invest. That's the way the system's, it is designed to keep you trapped in a cycle of spending. If you go and look at all the like serious bro marketing, like there is something called the Ascension model. They're basically have you go up the value ladder and it starts with indoctrination. Like this is some next level.

Speaker 1 (15:12):

Okay. So tell us more about that then, because I think I've seen you talk about this on, on Instagram and I'm pretty sure is this is this related to kind of the Colts and the, and the intersection of Colts and online business.

Speaker 2 (15:24):

Yes. Yeah. So I would say online business, like if you go back to the very beginning and like, stick with me here, this can be a bit of a journey, but if you go back to the very, very beginning, it goes back to, you know, kind of these granddaddies we'll call them because they were men and they were bros and they come directly out of things like pickup artistry that you use as a ton of NLP. Like they come in of some pretty questionable places. If you go do your homework and I won't name names, but just, you know, I would say go Google, you'll find some interest, interesting information. And so what happens is they start off with these tactics that are heavy on NLP, heavy on manipulation, all the same things that are used by calls. If you go a watch, then a Nexium documentaries to Doost in the bow, prepare to be like, Oh wait, this is online business what's happening.

Speaker 2 (16:21):

So, you know, those tactics become again, super, super normalized. And then as we evolve, we get into things like leader-follower dynamics. You cannot challenge the leader. You cannot question authority. All of this is tied up in a way that, you know, is online business occult, not necessarily, but there's definitely some indoctrination tactics, STEM, leadership, and mindset practices that I personally feel are very questionable. And I would implore, I mean, that's a big word, but I would implore anybody. Who's looking at a tactic like NLP or hypnosis from an untrained coach on the internet to seriously question it. You can literally be NLP certified in like a weekend course at your local, you know, sketching motel by the airport.

Speaker 1 (17:13):

Do you know, what's funny as I'm listening to you talk about NLP. This was, I feel like I, I'm probably about year two into my business and LP was everywhere. Like this was the, it was the, the, I guess the gimmick at the time, like everyone was talking about it in relation to business and how we, how we held these safe spaces, which I think is just one of the phrases is new weaponized. And it was, I remember hearing about it and I, whilst I got it, I was like, I'm not sure this is how it's supposed to be. You. Like I was, I'm not, I don't know whether and these people were not qualified. These people had read a book or call these people had, you know, these, these were people who were using it because their coach had told them that this will work. This will, this will help you book more clients. And in that way, and I remember that distinctly learning more and more about NLP through people who were using it, but it just, it was one of those things that was about the time where I started to question things and I was like, Hmm, this doesn't sit right. And this, this seems, this seems unethical to be using something that you have not been trained to use.

Speaker 2 (18:23):

Yeah. And if they have been trained, they are not trauma informed. They do not have a masters of social work or psychology or whatever is required to be in a therapeutic environment. It is seriously messed up. And I have fought with a lot of people on the internet about this who are like, NLP worked great for me. And I'm like, I'm glad it turned out well for you, but this is literally how they get people involved in cults. I'm not going to let a coach do this to my brain. And Oh, by the way, I did some math recently on the cost of my therapist versus the cost of some mindset coaching. And guess what? My therapist was half the cost. And I could talk to her twice as often. So, you know, I personally look at professional credentials and experience and do a deep dive before I'm going to invest money.

Speaker 2 (19:11):

I look at the tactics people are using. And I, I love what you said, Melanie, about safe spaces being weaponized. I don't trust safe spaces at all, because what I've seen over the course of 2020 was there is a lot of places that were safe spaces that were anything, but, and I am a white upper-middle-class Canadian lady with like, you know, I hold a lot of privileged identities. So I can't even imagine if I feel it's unsafe, how people that are in identities that are truly, you know, not mainstream or not the dominant ones, how they're feeling in those spaces. So spare me with your safe spaces. People.

Speaker 1 (19:49):

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I, and this was something I had said recently was like, look, you know, I can talk about this, but I'm not the person that necessarily people need to be listening to as a, as a white cisgender heterosexual woman. Like I come from, I am privileged and there are areas of many areas of my life, but I also know how long it took me to unpack the trust that got broken, the response and lack of trust I had in myself after going through this experience, the money that I spent, because it wasn't an investment, an investment investment has trust behind it, like an investment hasn't trust. And this, this was something I perceived to be an investment, but also made these decisions based on employer testimonials. And a lot of like, you're going to make it all back in the first month.

Speaker 2 (20:39):

Yeah. And this is where, like, this is where they get us. Like truly. I mean, these people are masterful. This is not by accident or ignorance. Like they're playing fast and loose with their morals because they care about making money and job. Number one is to convince you that spending money to grow your business is an investment. And from my perspective, I did a big analysis on this. About a year ago, I had about a 50, 50, 50, 50 success rate, which, you know, all things consider isn't bad. But when I added up and I'm like, Oh, that was $75,000 you asked. So basically a hundred thousand dollars Canadian. I was like, that is a lot of money that I could have used on something more importantly, like, I don't know. I look at every business investment now from the perspective of like, what's my potential ROI. And if I don't get the ROI, they're promising, like what's 50%. What's 25%. Am I okay with losing this money completely? That's literally the questions I have to ask myself at this point.

Speaker 1 (21:44):

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like of her when I look at those investments as well, I think somebody asked me recently, how much do I invest in myself? And I was, I was like, what are you, what do you mean? And she was like, learning new things. Like how much do you invest in learning new things? And I was like, well, not that much because I'm at the point where I feel like I have this foundation. And if I'm going to invest in things, they're probably not things like about Instagram as such like these things I'm more likely to invest in are probably more likely to help me get through. So some of the old drama that I went through, or to look at ways in which I can do better within my own business and within my team and my industry. So I feel like there's this, this place where we, I'm sure it's not the same for everyone.

Speaker 1 (22:36):

But like there is this point where you invest a lot of money in learning. And then at some point that kind of balances out. And it's like, now you have to make a decision about all these things you learned, what are you going to do with that next? And then I feel like you'll, your investment journey is very different. Like you were saying, like, you start to look at things in a different way and you start to have more perspective of, okay, well this investment I made back then I didn't get those results. So I need to be aware if I, or why didn't I get those things? And there's a lot of self-inquiry and like individual work that needs to happen on that basis.

Speaker 2 (23:09):

Absolutely. And I think this is where all of us slowing down, you know, running things through a series of questions where we can go, okay, is this, you know, is this the right decision? And really engaging our critical thinking about all possible scenarios, not just believing the high pressure scenario, the top 1% there's results, not typical testimonials. And really, I think in that marketing and sales kind of journey you have with any brand, any brand online, really looking out like, does this feel true? Does this feel right? Because a lot times we know something is off, but we talk ourselves out of it. We're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, everyone's doing it. Like, it's like, you're not a high S you know, you're not in ninth grade, you know, not that first year of high school where you're like, okay, I just want to be cool and belong.

Speaker 2 (24:00):

Like that ship has sailed now. So let's just be okay with being like, I'll let that go. And I mean, there was a time period where I watched friends, you know, doing all these amazing things on the, on the, you know, from the Instagram view of things. And I was like, I'm okay with not being in that mastermind because it cost $25,000 and that's not aligned with my values. And I think the clearer you can get on, you know, where's your ethical line? What are your values? The easier these decisions will get. I mean, maybe your business is going to grow a little bit slower because you're not gaming, you know, trying to like shortcut through the system. But you're also going to build a business that lasts and can weather all these ups and downs and trends and, you know, the hottest new platform or clubhouse that you're going to be here five, 10 years down the road. And I think that's, that's why we started a business. We don't start a business to make a bunch of money in year one, and then, you know, start something new.

Speaker 1 (24:52):

Yeah. It's very much, you know, it's a long game. And I think sometimes I think people, people, myself included you know, you forget that, like when you fi when I first started my business, it's like I knew, but it was also so new and shiny and exciting. And you know, then five years in, I'm like, no, this really is a long game. I'm here for the long haul. And so decisions I make today need to be something that I need to, it needs to potentially support me in in six months, six years time. Like these need to be decisions that I make with thoughts and care and intention, not just throwing money at a situation because somebody else is creating a sense of agency and, and FOMO and trust through scarcity.

Speaker 2 (25:39):

And I think this is where, like one of I have as part of the work I'm doing on trust. I have these trust cores, and one of them is time. And one of the conversations and, you know, kind of dialogues that goes online, goes on online is everyone wants everything fast, everything like everyone wants, like the McDonald's fast food version of this. And it's like, you know, something versed. That's really going to be worthwhile. That's something that is going to sustain us and really, you know, enhance our lives is going to take time. It's like cooking a really great meal. You can have the fries through the drive-through at McDonald's, or you can like, hold out for the steak fried. Like you decide what you want to do, but like, I'm personally going to go with the way better meal, because I'm going to be way more satisfied at the end.

Speaker 2 (26:29):

That's a totally new analogy because I keep referring to things as McDonald's. I don't know. Maybe I want some McDonald's secretly we'll see what happens at lunchtime, but these business journeys, they're not true. They're meant to make feel insecure. They're meant to make us think like we're failing. And I want to say, like, I have been doing this for like, I have been self-employed for 16 years and I still have doubts that I'm doing the right thing. I still have moments where I'm like, ah, it's not happening fast enough. And I also have the, Oh my gosh, am I missing out? What am I missing? Like, those questions never go away. There's no secret level. You unlock in your business where you're like, I got it all handled. So I think we just need to learn and be an observance of those insecurities or questions or critiques. We have ourself and learn how to live with them and in harmony and just be like, yeah, I see you. We're not doing this right now.

Speaker 1 (27:26):

Yeah. Yeah. Def I couldn't agree more because I feel like that's something that, for me personally, like my inner critic is very, very loud. And I mean, I know everyone has the inner critic, but there were, there was a lot of time where it was like, am I the only one that is going through this? Like, and now I'm like, no, course I'm not, I'm a hundred percent. No, but how we deal with it. And it responds to different things is going to look different for each of each individual, because we have different triggers and we have different things that are going to impact us. Like not everyone has been through the same business coaching journey or has experienced the same break in trust. It looks different. But overall, when I speak to people, what I hear is it's like, there are these like buckets of similar things, right?

Speaker 1 (28:16):

There's these similar experiences that have, I can only assume have being part of this, this teaching method, this method of like, as you were explaining, kind of in the essence of section of Coles and like indoctrination, where it's like, we just going to keep teaching the same thing, and you're all going to keep teaching the same thing and you're going to keep teaching the same thing. And then there is this kind of group of people and you, and I was saying like, how many people aren't speaking up and aunt saying, and maybe they've not even recognized it yet in their own life or in their own business that they are experiencing these same things. And yeah, I, I feel like we could talk forever, but I want to ask you something. Can we talk about celebrity entrepreneurs? I'm not saying naming names.

Speaker 2 (28:58):

Sure. I have I'll say about this.

Speaker 1 (29:02):

I was thinking about this before we started recording. And I was like, you know, what would I have first started my business? I remember being categorically told the on Instagram, and this was like, this was before Facebook changed and nobody could see any content, but this was an Instagram was just becoming cool. And I was told that you have to show like behind the scenes, everyone wants to see your life and show your family and show your kids. And everybody has to, because it's like reality TV. And I was like, why did I feel like, why was I so bothered by this? Because my husband used to get so mad at me. He was like, everything was a photo. Everything was a moment. Everything then lost. It's like moments because of this like, idea that we were becoming celebrities. Yeah. So let's talk about celebrity entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 (29:51):

Okay. So here's the deal with influencer culture. And we all see it is that we are supposed to be performing our lives on the internet, right? Like this is to be a brand and to run a business. We need to be basically, I'm just going to sound crass, but like pimping out our families and our day-to-day lives in order to get attention. And I feel I had a, like OB complete disclosure. I had a super like lengthy struggle with Instagram because of this, because I wasn't willing to do it. And it took me a long time to figure out what I was like, how am I actually going to use Instagram as a platform? Because no, you know, my kid, we keep him very private. My husband works in a super conservative environment, does not want to be on social media. So I'm just like no way no day.

Speaker 2 (30:35):

So, you know, when I started analyzing all this, we've seen this rise of influencers, right? Where the shoppable life and the shoppable life is great for lip gloss or slippers the shop of a life in terms of how we are going to use these platforms and perform our lives and be basically essentially business influencers. It starts to fail as far as I'm concerned. And I started looking at like, okay, so we talk a ton about burrow marketing. We talk about the coaches who coach coaches, you know, very, I gotta use air quotes, lady boss style. And I was like, it's great. We can totally recognize these two kind of archetypes in the wild, but there's so many other types of these influencer slash slow business celebrities that are out there that are much, much harder to recognize. So when I talk about a ton and when I talk about this, I can see like the light bulb going on for people's.

Speaker 2 (31:30):

They're like, Oh, I totally know what that looks like is the best friend next door. And yes, I have made up names for all of them. And I'm actually going to do a reboot on this work because I have a new one I've noticed. And I'm like, Ooh, this one needs to be talked about, but this best friend, next door they're meant to be very approachable. They're literally like your best friend. So they act very relate. They bank on the relate-ability and it's kinda like, I'm just like you. And the story goes a little, something like this. I was just a small girl from it. You know, a girl from a small town with big dreams. Like that's the kind of thing as I grew up working class, it's all these stories to make you think there's so much like you, that you too can make millions while you sleep.

Speaker 2 (32:15):

And they play on that. You know, they use that. We've also gotten about this rebel creative type, which I mean, I fully admit, like if we had to classify me, that's where I would land. But you know, very much relying on the fact that like, it's like F this and I'm not doing it this way and I'm going to break all the rules. There's also my favorite, the intellectual superiors, these, the people are like, this is my seven steps framework that it actually is like going to try. I'm going to charge you five grand for it, but I can actually buy it in like a nine 99 ebook, but I know everything. And you're dumb. Like there's. And once you start to really recognize these, like I literally know about the point where I have people who message me and be like, here's an example of a BFF next door in action. And they thought, and they were like, Hey, you know what? I started getting sucked in with this. But then I realized, I was like, Oh, this is just another package. It's just another way these people are showing up. So I think we have to really stop ourselves and be like, wait a second. How am I being influenced by this? And I mean, I think it's a little ironic as someone who has an online presence, I'm literally training people. Not to trust me to ask lots of questions. I know

Speaker 1 (33:25):

Like the same. I'm like, don't trust me. Don't listen to anything. Anyone says, listen to yourself, but you can also read my emails.

Speaker 2 (33:32):

Yeah. I I'm always like don't worry. I'm not going to do those things for you, but in case you want to buy something here I am and don't buy it too fast. You better take a whole week to think about it. Like, I actually had a sales call for my mastermind, not that long ago. And I, the person was like, I'm ready to sign up. I'm like, get back to me in 48 hours. I won't allow you to sign up, but,

Speaker 1 (33:53):

And this is, isn't this coming back to that trust thing. Like, it's so funny because I feel like we are so, and this is sometimes something I overthink where I'm like, I want to make sure that I'm not doing these things. And like, I know, I know I'm not doing these things, but then could it be slipping in my don't realize? And it's like this constantly just having to have this like perspective and this like self order of, am I doing this? No, I'm not okay. This is okay. I'm a good person. And I make trying to do these things in the right way. But at the same time, as you say, like telling people, you know, making sure that people do feel safe because like at the end of the day, a safe space is something I do want to create. But also there's no point in saying that, cause like, everyone's just going to roll their eyes because you have to, at this point, it's like, there's no point in just saying it. Like it comes through through that trust through how you run your business and how you do things and building those relationships as well.

Speaker 2 (34:50):

And I think what's always funny about all of this is like right now. I mean, I'm constantly checking in with myself. Like you said on everything, I'm preparing to launch this group program, which is literally about like getting this BS out of your business and I'm kind of laughing as I'm doing it. Cause I'm adding these bonuses and I'm like, but these bonuses are actually useful and valuable and like core things. So on the sales page, I just wrote like, this is where a celebrity entrepreneur would tell you, these bonuses are worth $87,000. I thought I wrote, honestly, I didn't know how much they're worth, but you're getting them because they're actually needed and you will use them. I'm just calling it right out. Cause I was like, you know what? These bonuses actually make sense. And just because these people have ruined it with their ridiculous promises of bonuses doesn't mean I can't use them when they're actually needed and support people in a way that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (35:39):

Yeah. Yeah. That's this, this is, this is something that I had thought about at the end of last year in relation to making some commitments in my business. And I was like, the bonuses thing is something that I had kind of removed for a period of time. Cause I was like, the problem is it's, it's the bonuses that nobody ever uses. Right? It's the bonuses that are given this massive price tag. And then maybe they're not, they're not anywhere near what you expect. So they, they have a name that sells it, but then it's like, it's not in depth or it's not actually going to practical and you can't actually use it in any way. It doesn't actually deliver on its own its value. And as you say, you know, having these things like it's okay to have things that actually help people, it's okay to have bonuses or these areas that have been weaponized, but it's okay to have these things when they actually serve the purpose when they actually do the job they were intended to do in the first place.

Speaker 2 (36:40):

Yeah. And this is where I think every single, like I've seen a lot, there's a lot of stuff out there now I think with a discussion around ethical online business is being very, very, very, very, very prescriptive because people just, we have been trained to think in frameworks and to give, be given checklists and everything else. And I would be aware of anything that says, do you use this tactic or don't use this tactic. I just want to ask the questions. So people think and decide for them, what's going to work. I mean, I have friends like we have had like full-on, you know, multi hour zoom debates on some of these tactics and I'm like, listen, here's my take on it. Do what you're going to do. Like, this is not about me telling anyone what to do. It's about me equipping people with the information. So, you know, our bonuses, the worst thing on earth. No, I mean, that's, it's like the debate around countdown timers. I don't use them, but like, is that the Hill I want to die on no, I got bigger fish to fry.

Speaker 1 (37:38):

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like it's like, if you don't want to use them, like don't, I mean, I don't use them because I just was fed up with trying to find things actually worked, but it's the same time. It's like, it's probably not going to be the make or break of my business, whether I use a timer or not. Like it's not, you know, I was saying this to somebody just recently as well. When we first our business, like the, the, the, how many days we were open to the cart for, or which day and what time we open and close the car. And I was like, you know what, at some point in business, he, things might make a difference, but when you're starting and your audience is your audience is small and you're speaking to a few people, I was like, it probably isn't going to make or break that launch, which day you were and closed the car.

Speaker 1 (38:21):

In fact, it's probably going to make or break as to how you feel as an individual, but that's not tour. Like it's, it's this kind of quick, fast turnarounds and everything's a gimmick and gamified, as you were saying. So yeah, again, it's about that perspective as an individual, like thinking about ourselves in relation to these things as well. Yeah. And I mean, a lot of these kind of commonly held like, Oh, you must have a cart open for two weeks and close on this day. And it's like, this again is prescriptive business advice that is designed to sell you probably course on launching. So, you know, look at, look at the source of your information. Like there's a lot of things I say that have serve exactly zero purpose in terms of anything I'm ever going to sell. But I say it just because I'm like, well, this is true and it needs to be sad. And this is where, you know, we need to filter our business advice a little bit better and just be very thoughtful and mindful about, you know, who we, who we let into our feeds on Instagram, who we let in our ears, when we listen to our podcasts, like the more you can kind of call that and take information only from a few trusted sources the, the more independence and self trust you are going to have and the better decisions you're probably going to make.

Speaker 3 (39:41):

Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 1 (39:44):

I couldn't agree more. I feel like we could talk for hours about this. Like yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's like me taking everything we've ever discussed in the DMS on Instagram. And I'm like, okay, let's put this into a podcast, let's have this compensation here. And I, I just, I love the way you do approach things, because as you said earlier, you take this like really deep dive I'm I like to ask questions, but it's so interesting to look at the way you do that research. And you look at things because you have gone through this journey in such a different way. And I think that's so important for us to be able to see for those of us who have come up through this, like business coaching, this echo chamber, it's so important for us to be able to see that actually there is a side to business that doesn't have to look like this, and we can be a part of that. And we can create that for ourselves and be, you know, there are other people doing the same thing. So I think that's so important.

Speaker 1 (40:51):

I wasn't sure if you were going to continue, I was like, have I got her off? What have I done? No, I was like, I was like, I thought you were going to say something else. And then I like waited and I'm like, wait a second. This is a very long pause. Okay. Haley, we need to edit this out. Okay. So I'll start to wrap things up anyway. That's fine. Okay. Okay. So Maggie for everyone who's listening, who has not already following you, or is not already aware of your content, that they shouldn't be reading and listening, but should be, where can they find you in the interwebs? So you're listening to podcast rate. Also. I would say if you liked this podcast, probably enjoy my podcast,

Speaker 2 (41:34):

Which is the BS free service business. It's on Apple, Spotify, all the places podcasts are. And then I spend my time on Instagram. I'm at small business, Boston, Instagram. I don't know what's going to happen when the pandemic is over. My Instagram might just take a little, have to take a hiatus because this has been my, a pandemic project. Oh, really? Okay.

Speaker 4 (41:58):


Speaker 2 (42:01):

A lot more time than normal. So I think I have to normal. I have to downgrade my integrate internet presence, maybe slightly. I think that's probably aspirational though, but you know, it's always worth exploring. That's what I figure. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:14):

Okay. So we can follow you on Instagram. I mean, I'm already following on Instagram, but Instagram and podcasts and is the anyway where we can learn more about what you're doing and what you're working on is small business bus.

Speaker 2 (42:26):

Yeah. So the website is always the best place for everything. Small business

Speaker 1 (42:32):

Perfect. Okay. So we will make sure that everything is linked up in the show notes so that you can go and follow along, learn more about trust and which sounds so ridiculous to say, but to learn more about trust and to learn more about what is happening in the online business space. Because we, I feel like we've scratched the surface of this today, but Maggie does take a deep dive into all of these things, both in the podcast and over on Instagram. So make sure you go and check that out, but thank you so much for coming on and chatting with me about this. It's been wonderful. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Speaker 4 (43:10):

Thank you.