Freeing Ourselves from Perfectionism with Nina Hannert-Nimmo

Speaker 1 (00:00:01):

Hey outlaws. Welcome to episode 91. Um, I wanted to start by acknowledging, um, the fact that today’s guest contacted me after recording to say that she had, um, a little bit of reflection upon recording and realized that the way she talked about a topic in today’s episode, which was is going to be Spoon Theory, um, she wanted to kind of add a little bit of a, a kind of a disclaimer, um, something to let you guys know that this reflection had led her to feel that she was protect, potentially appropriating language. So I just wanna read what she wrote. Um, being said, the way I talked about spoon theory and managing our mental energy is really appropriating language or concepts used by the chronic illness community, and that’s not okay. Um, I was wondering if it’s possible to add a blurb to the show notes when the pod comes out stating that I did that and I want to acknowledge the mistake of doing so.

Speaker 1 (00:00:56):

I also want listeners to understand the intent of the original concept and the harm I may have caused by appropriating it. Um, first of all, I just, I wanna say the fact that, you know, I think as a perfectionist over here myself, um, and someone who is incredibly afraid of getting things wrong or making mistakes, I feel like there’s a lot of times when I don’t say things or use certain, um, examples, or I kind of hold back, um, or kind of constantly self audit because I’m afraid of getting something wrong or saying something that could be interpreted in the wrong way. This is something that really holds me back in business, and it has also held me back podcasting as well. There’s many times where I’ve panicked and thought, have I said something that is gonna be interpreted in the wrong way? And whilst I know that we can have the best of intentions, and hopefully people really know our intentions, we live in a world where it’s not always received in the way that we intend it to be received.

Speaker 1 (00:01:53):

So firstly, I just wanna say thank you means for contacting me afterwards for taking the time to do this, because I really appreciate it. I really think it shows, um, the kind of guests that we have on this show. I think it shows who you are, and I really appreciate you taking the time to reach out. Um, and to, you know, just add this to the episode. So we are gonna get into the actual recording of today’s episode. We’re gonna head straight into an intro from here, but I just wanted to start by letting you’ll know that, um, and just sharing what needs had said so that you can kind of head in today’s episode with that in mind. So, without further ado, let’s get into episode 91.

Speaker 1 (00:02:38):

Hey outlaws, welcome to a brand new episode. This week we have a guest and we are joined my Nina Hannah Nimo, also known as ns. And that’s how I’m gonna be referring to her throughout this episode. So, N’s pronouns are she, her, she’s also one of my pen pals. So she is part of small biz snail mail, which is my online and offline business pen paling community. We will link to that in the show notes in case you want to learn more. We’ve been doing this for most of 2022. And, um, it’s a beautiful community of business owners with different backgrounds all across the world, different industries, different niches, and we’re coming together to pen pal with each other. Um, it’s basically the connect, the main connection is that we have businesses, and we probably hate social media <laugh>, or at least hate algorithms and want to connect and have a community without the pressure of creating something online that feels like we’re shouting out into the abyss that feels like we could spend hours creating something amazing and not even knowing if it reaches the right people.

Speaker 1 (00:03:55):

And that’s one of the beautiful things about small business now, now is you spend some time, you know, each month creating something for one particular person, and you post it. And, you know, as long as the post is not completely, it’s gonna arrive and that person is going to receive it. That person’s like creating a piece of content for one specific person. And at the same time, we’re building those connections. And one of the reasons why I created that community is because I have very much a love hate relationship, specifically with Instagram, as you all know. Um, and I don’t wanna spend so much time creating content and creating new content, especially that I have sometimes feels like I have no control over. And I like being creative. I love creating my penal letters. Um, and you probably, if you’ve been following me on Instagram, you’ve seen me sharing them there or my email list.

Speaker 1 (00:04:52):

Um, and yeah, it’s just, you know, it’s a beautiful community. It continues to grow, which I absolutely love. And you can join us at any time. Um, you can find us over on Patreon. So if you go to my website and click on the Patreon button at the top of the screen, you will be able to find small biz snail mail and all the information over there. We do have an online group, but you know, it’s very quiet because the point is that we are offline and we’re connecting offline as well. So, yeah, feel free to come and find out more about Small Biz Snail Mal and learn more and get in touch with us. So we are joined today by means, as I said, who is a self proclaimed personal growth junkie turned, mindfulness coach who’s made it, her mission to help Overthinkers and perfectionist, My hand is raised, learn how to achieve their goals and navigate life without being, while being, sorry, less of a dick to themselves.

Speaker 1 (00:05:54):

I definitely need that too. <laugh>. I definitely need to be less of a dick to myself. Um, and I’m sure some of you are also nodding along thinking, Yep, I, I could deal with that too. So that’s beautiful because that is what means and I are gonna get into today. Um, we’re gonna be talking about breaking up with the rules and moving away from perfectionism, managing your mental energy, and also navigating setbacks and managing your mind. And we do, you know, go off on some tangents as well as I always do. But it’s a beautiful conversation and it’s really, really needed right now, um, during this season as we’ve been discussing throughout the whole season so far during this season of kind of finishing strong, this, this busy season that that can really take us away from what we need. And I have been spending so much time really checking in with myself, being really curious, spending a lot of time with my channel, a lot of time being cozy.

Speaker 1 (00:07:00):

Um, these are things that I absolutely love and absolutely need. And so today when I sat down with needs, I grabbed a heartwarming cup of coffee, lit my midnight pumpkin candle, and we got into all of this. Goodness. So I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. As much as I enjoyed chatting with you, as much as I enjoyed recording and learning from her as well, as always, you can find all the links over in the show notes. And if you need a transcript whilst listening to the episode, you can find that over there as well at melanie knights.com/podcasts. So let’s get into today’s episode.

Speaker 1 (00:01):

Okay. Means welcome to Entrepreneurial Outlaws. I’m really excited to chat with you today.

Speaker 2 (00:08:26):

Hey, Melanie. Thanks for having me. I’m super stoked to, to chat today too.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So we’ve been connected online for a while, but we’ve also been able to pen pal with each other, which has been really, really fun. And I just recently got a letter from you. Um, so we’ve been kind of connecting both online and offline, but it’s really fun to sit down and actually chat with you for a while today. Cause we haven’t done this before. So, yes, I’m, I’m really looking forward to getting into some conversations around perfectionism and probably burnout as well, <laugh>, because the theme for this season of entrepreneurial allos is entrepreneurial burnout. Because this is the season of finishing Strong. We see a lot of conversations about how we can, we still have time, we can keep going, and life also just generally gets very busy at this time of year and we so often neglect what we actually need. And so I wanna just start by taking a moment to kind of check in with you and asking you what is your sole need during this season?

Speaker 2 I think my answer will fit in perfectly with the, the theme because it is slowing down. I think I’m finally in a place of listening to, to I think what my, you know, my body, but also just that, that inner knowing is telling me, and it is to not just keep chucking things on top of my, my plate or throwing more plates in the air that I’ll, I’ll try and, you know, catch or bulls that I’ll try and juggle. Um, and I think it’s been a long time coming to be fair cause I’m one of those people that likes doing all the things. And I like, you know, being a CrossFit, I love the lists and the planners and all the things, but, and doing less or slowing down or even, you know, resting hasn’t always come easy for me. Um, but I think based on where I’m at from a business and personal point of view, I’m actually in a place where I want to slow down. I want to make time to just be present instead of just doing all the things.

Speaker 1 (03:12):

Mm. I feel that so much <laugh>, and I know that’s something that we kind of touched on in our recent pen pals. And I feel that so much too because at the time of recording this, I’ve been, I’ve been keep like this conversation with myself and I’ve had a few conversations with people close to me that I felt like my time just hasn’t belonged to me for a good few months. And I know that’s not necessarily true, but because time is time, but I have felt like so many of the important things to me haven’t been, haven’t been spending time on them, the things I really want to be doing. Um, and it’s felt like such a fast pace or faster than perhaps I was used to earlier in the year. Um, and so I totally feel you with that one. Like, I want to be slowing down and, and I don’t know what that necessarily looks like or means, but definitely tapping into that because so often I don’t give myself grace. And I think that segues really nicely into something we’re gonna be talking about today as well, um, because I think everybody, <laugh>, everybody listening has either dealt with or is dealing with some perfectionism. So I know that today we’re gonna be exploring the work that you do with your clients. And I’m really, really excited because this is something we haven’t really got into in depth on the show. And many of the outlaws listening identify as empaths, creatives and highly sensitive folks. I am one of those people as well. And one of the things absolutely bans me the out is when I become hyper fixated on the details. And that sneaky perfection rears her head. It drains my energy really quickly and often makes me feel like very irrational. Um, and I know you have lots of thoughts about perfectionism, so can you just tell us more as long as you want? I’ve got a cup of coffee. I’m good. <laugh> <laugh>

Speaker 2 (00:13:00):

<laugh>, how much time do we have <laugh>,

Speaker 1 I’ve got a cup of coffee. I’m good. <laugh> <laugh>

Speaker 2 I mean, or, or <laugh> or, I mean, that was, that was, you know, a little bit tongue and cheek I guess. But I do have a lot to say about, um, perfectionism and I think a little bit, maybe a bit more context, cuz I always like adding context and neons to things because there’s never, like, if there’s one other thing aside from perfectionism that can me off it’s generalizations, but, um, and, you know, pretending there’s like one thing that’ll, that’ll solve people’s problem in whatever area of life. Um, but you know, with, you’ve already sort of said that it, you know, can drain us like

Speaker 2 (00:13:55):

Literally suck, suck the life, suck the creativity out of you because you’re trying to turn, turn it into something or try, you know, whatever you are you’re working on, whether that, you know, is, is art or business things or crafting, you know, content, things like that. It’s, it’s like this weird needs that you, you know, it has to be this amazing, magical thing that you have the vision of in your head. And that is, by the way, <laugh> having this idea of perfection is, there’s nothing wrong with that inherently, right? Cuz it means that you, you want to do something awesome, it means that you care about what you do, right? So I think in a weird twisted way, it’s, it kind of comes from a good place, but it’s when it stops us from either starting or ever really going because we just think we have to wait or we think it has to look this very specific way that we have to do something.

Speaker 2 (00:15:05):

And that’s sort of, I guess there’s like, we use it as this umbrella term, right? It’s like perfectionism. And I actually think we all have slightly different understandings or, or meanings that we give it and, and it shows up for us in different ways as well, depending on, you know, who we are, where we, where we’re at in life. There’s that, there’s that nuance in that context <laugh>. Um, but one way I sort of, I guess I like to explain, or I, I use it with, um, you know, when I try and write quine or even talk to talk to my clients about it, is that it it shows up in the rules that we create for ourselves or the rules that we adopt and kind of almost, you know, adopters, our own internalize because of what we see online, what we see other people doing, or even have been taught by, you know, business coaches and the like, that there is this, this particular way that you have to launch and then those things become rules that you think you have to implement.

Speaker 2 (00:16:12):

And, you know, with this, like the, the, the rule, and I think with a lot of maybe what we’ll talk about today or even what I work on with my clients, by the way, I still navigate a lot of that stuff too, right? None of us are sort of immune to, to these thoughts and, and things in our heads. It just me, you know, I sort of like to say I can recognize them a little bit faster, um, these days, but I certainly have, you know, had, and still have rules and, and ideas and, and expectations of myself that, you know, if I was another person, I’d probably be like, M means that’s, that’s perfectionism showing up. Why are you doing, you know, that’s a rule over there that you don’t really, why are you following that? Um, and I think a big one for a lot of us is that our business has to look a certain way or it has to, you know, success can only be, you know, 10 K months quitting your day job or whatever else it looks like. It’s like there’s these certain, you know, pretty images of what it can look like and certainly does for a lot of people, like no shape to them. But a lot of us can take that and like internalize it such that it then actually influences everything else we try and do and not necessarily in a helpful way.

Speaker 1 Well, as you may or may not know, I absolutely agree. I mean, we’ve talked about this on the show so many times. My experience with business coaching in particular and the way those rules have then kind of shown up for me and seeped into so many different areas of my business. And I mean, essentially that’s why we’re here having this conversation on entrepreneur outlaws because that was kind of the inspiration for this show was me realizing that I didn’t wanna do business like everybody else. And my business looked different and my vision was different and my needs were different. And at the time, in 20, what was the end of 2019 and early 2020 when I felt that way, and I mean, I still feel that way, but I felt very alone at that time, <laugh> in those feelings. I felt like I was kind of an outsider. I felt like nobody’s having these conversations. I’m not seeing other people talking about, you know, that business doesn’t have to be a six figure launch or a sellout launch or, you know, like you were saying, I mean, context is hugely important, especially in online business because there’s so many smoke and mirrors. So many people are, you know, manipulating half truths <laugh> to on sales pages and to market and sell their businesses. And I think that can feel, that can build up the, the belief that business has to look a certain way. And then we just, or at least for me, I just consistently felt less than, I consistently felt like I was missing something. And from my experience, so many people who I’ve seen also feeling this way, you, the result is often that you just think you’re not cut out for it. You think that you’re not cut out for having a business, whether it’s a side hustle or a full-time business because you can’t seem to catch a break. And it’s not to say that if you suddenly go all the rules, it’s gonna be really easy cuz it’s still definitely not even doing that brings its own, you know, set of issues. And business is just generally hard. That’s why a lot of people don’t have businesses because running a business is tough. Um, and the perception that running a business is easy or that it’s going to suddenly create this like a crazy amount of income and you’re just gonna be staying on a beach sipping a miti. Like that could be somebody’s goal. That’s not my goal, that’s not my vision. I have no desire to be doing that. I’m not turning down five K months, 10 K months, six figures. I’m not turning down any of those things. But, you know, success can be unconditional. And I recently recorded an as an episode about like how I measure my success because for me it’s so difficult. <laugh>. Yeah. It’s, it’s so hard. Mm mm

Speaker 2 (00:20:40):

Hmm. I I was gonna say I listen to that today actually <laugh>,

Speaker 2 (00:20:53):

But it’s so true, but it’s so hard. And, but at the same time, there’s so many different ways that you can measure, you know, or even, I think there’s, you know, there’s probably even part in the fact that we think we have to measure, maybe not everything, but even something like, you know, success and quotation marks. It’s, you know, for, and at some point maybe, you know, yes we do, you know, measuring is is a good thing. I’m a very logical analytical thinker, so measuring things is kind of, you know, I usually tend to think that’s a good thing. But then with my sort of more coach hat on, at the same time though, you know, at some point in time, if you notice that, and it’s certainly something for I’ve done for myself is when I’ve noticed, oh, I’ve, you know, set these goals and then fell short and, um, you know, or thought my business had to be successful with within X number of months or years, right?

Speaker 2 (00:21:56):

And then obviously didn’t achieve that. So that made me feel a bit about what I was doing and questioning what I was doing. I, I actually started to also challenge my own thinking in terms of, you know, do I actually need to measure things like income or things like number of, you know, clients or even, god forbid, number of followers and, you know, or the vanity metrics online. But actually, you know what, it’s even getting into inquiring what, what purpose or some of those metrics or what we’re trying to claim a success, what’s that even serving for us? And is there something else about, you know, pursuing some of it just because it’s freaking fun because it lights us up because we’re passionate about it. You know, Does it have to have some arbitrary or maybe not so arbitrary, but it, it made up way of success? Or can we also just do it because we like doing it,

Speaker 1 (15:16):

And I think that’s so important because when we think about those metrics, whether we’re looking at, you know, van metrics, you know, numbers and followers, yes, it’s data and data of course can support us. You know, that analytical part of our brain wants that data. But at the same time, I think feelings and how we feel is plays a massive part. And I know that for the longest time, my feelings apparently did not matter. <laugh> it was completely irrelevant. And that was pretty much how I was taught to run business. And so the constant focus was how much money do you wanna make? Know your numbers. And I guess there can be some beauty in that, you know, paying attention to what’s going on. But at the end of the day, if I write down, I wanna make a hundred thousand pounds, like what’s going to, what’s gonna be the process? Because the journey is the only thing that’s gonna get me there. I’m not just gonna wake up tomorrow and have that money. So it’s like enjoying all those pieces along the way and understanding why is that important to me and what is that gonna allow for me to do? And I think that’s why, for me personally, I can’t, men, like I pay attention to obviously money and there’s certain financial goals I may have, but that’s not what drives me. I think that’s the important thing. And you know, I’ve been very transparent here as well about how I have a freelancing role that pays my bills. My business still gets to be something, you know, essentially a side hustle. My business gets to be this thing that I get to really nurture because for it to be quote, successful in the position where I’m able to quit freelancing and take this full time, I need to feel confident and safe. And I think safety in our businesses is not discussed enough. And like the state of the economies and like everything right now, that’s so important to have that conversation because I have this conversation with friends. But that’s why we are here to have these conversations publicly. So anyone listening, thinking, you know, everything is more expensive than it was two months ago. Everything, my business is not matching that some business coach coming along and telling you, you just need to sit on your butt and like manifest it. That’s not actually gonna get you anywhere. <laugh> like again, coming back to, okay, what do I practically need to do? How do I feel like having those conversations with ourselves is so important?

Speaker 2 (00:25:22):

Yep. 100%

Speaker 1 (17:52):

So I know that as entrepreneurs, there are so many things for us to think about because, well, I mean, just half the things I just listed, <laugh>, you know, running a business in itself has so many different, um, so many different avenues. There’s so many different tasks and different roles that we play as business owners. And then that’s just, you know, one part of who we are. But oftentimes we overthink those things. And Overthinkers also listening will agree that mental energy is so easily drained by all of these things that we have to think about. I always say that overthinking is a feminist issue because I’m, I’m, I’m stunned. I mean, I do it myself, but as you were saying earlier, I’ll look, I’ll be talking to a friend or a peer and I’m like, why? Why are we overthinking this <laugh>? Like, it makes sense. Like this, this makes absolute sense for you. Um, so it’s always, it’s always interesting to see that because I know that I overthink a lot of my business and decisions and I’m really curious to know, um, how we can manage our mental energy and is it even possible to kind of stabilize that imbalance between overthinking and, you know, not draining our mental energy at the same time?

Speaker 2 (00:26:27):

<laugh>. That is a great question. And I think to a certain degree, depending on,

Speaker 2 (00:27:10):

I think we can, we can definitely get more mindful with how we manage our mental energy. I think I always, I never like the term balance or imbalance, cuz that kind of implies that there is one particular way of how things have to be. And I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I do believe that we can manage our mental energy a lot better. I often, I think I can swear on this podcast, right? I think I can, um, <laugh>, but I often like with, with on, um, my clients and or just when I explain, even when I explain stuff like this to friends, I, I call it managing our, right? How many do we do we have to give? And I like to dial it back cuz most of us aren’t just entrepreneurs and business owners, right? We’re partners. Maybe we are parents of human children or, you know, fur bubbies as the, as the case for me.

Speaker 2 (00:28:19):

Um, maybe we’re also still employees or contract, you know, working for other people and so many other things, you know, people, teammates in the sport or whatever other identities sort of we hold. But the point be that there’s a lot to us as the human and a lot of sort of identities and roles intersect, right? That they all, all of them together make us who we are. And I think it’s really important to look at sort of managing our mental energy or managing our within that context, right? Because trying to do it and just managing energy when it comes to business doesn’t, that’s, that’s like a almost, you can’t just say there because everything else that you’ve got going on in the day will impact how you might manage your energy when it comes to your business, right? If you’ve got to, you know, got a fair baby that’s throwing up or you know, or a human baby, you gotta make sure you take to school or whatever else is going on, it always will kind of impact and bounce off each other.

Speaker 2 (00:29:27):

And so a concept that I’ve used with clients before is I actually sort of, I guess somewhat adapted, I guess you could say. Um, this concept called spoon theory, I’m not sure if you’ve heard of that. We, we can kind of go into it a little bit. Um, cuz it was a concept developed by Christine, Miss Sereno, I hope I had pronounced her name, um, correctly. She’s a writer and

Speaker who’s got a chronic illness and she came up sort of with this concept to explain what living with a chronic illness is like to someone who doesn’t live with a chronic illness. And I think she, they were sitting at a table and happened to have lots of spoons around and it was basically explaining that each activity or everything that you do throughout the day takes up a spoon for, and maybe for someone who’s, I guess normal in quota marks, you know, getting up in the mor getting up outta bed is one spoon going in the sh having a shower is another spoon.

Speaker 2 (00:30:37):

Getting dressed is another spoon. Whereas for someone with a chronic illness, it might take three spoons just to get out of bed. And it sort of helped to explain to her friend that if you have this, you know, you have a limited number of spoons for the entire day. So it actually, you know, a, it becomes quite hard to do all the, the things that you might have to do throughout a day because it takes different kinds of energy from you. But also over time you can sort of, you, you start to figure out, actually this is gonna take me this much energy, so maybe I won’t do these other things because that I’ll be too physically exhausted. And by the way, the concept is way better explained on a website and I can share the link with you if you wanna put it in the show notes cuz it’s really well explained and I’ve probably just butchered it.

Speaker 2 (00:31:33):

Um, but I’ve, what I’ve done to, to help sort of clients work through this or to, to just help explain this as I, I’ve basically have sort of taken that concept and then, you know, put the, put the potty mouth over it and basically called it, instead of spoons, we are managing <laugh>. And the premise ba basically just says that it’s about imagining what you’ve got on for your day or the week and just being more mindful and deliberate about what and who you want to give a about. And you know, for example, if you have a limited number of to give because you’ve got a full-time job and you’ve got a family to take care of and you’re trying to do a side this thing on the side, you know, do you really wanna spend all your time pouring into Instagram trying to get on the good side of the algorithm? Or are there, is there this one client that you’re already working with who actually maybe if you, you know, really work with them, help them on their journey that may, you know, is that gonna be with more in your kind of, from a mental energy point of view? Because that could, you know, have other ripple effects, if that makes sense. Hmm.

Speaker 1 (23:47):

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think with, um, especially for coaching, well, I mean in any, any industry and any kind of niche within that industry, word of mouth is so important. And in particular, you know, when we’re talking about, you know, social media marketing and kind of growing our businesses, we have to consider, as you said, the that we have to give, the energy that we have to give to each layer of our marketing. Um, how much time, you know, where are we actually getting joy from those pieces of marketing? Or where is, where are we getting the most joy creatively? Because oftentimes as humans, at least in my experience, we will, well maybe have two or three things that we’re doing right? Let’s say email, Instagram, and like one other. And let’s say one of these is really easy, we almost don’t even notice it because it’s so easy. And then we are trying to spend so much time and energy on the thing that seems to not be working or the thing that seems to drain our time because we’re like, No, because I haven’t fixed this yet. Like, we wanna try and fix it. Instead of going, hang on a second, this is taking too many facts, <laugh>, this doesn’t take any, How could I make this one work even better for me? You know, how I take, you know, if I didn’t do this, what could I have time to do over here? What could I try out? What could I test? And I, I think that’s so powerful because there are, you know, I always say that our businesses and our ourselves, they don’t work in isolation. Like if you’re running a business yourself, you, you, you are a huge part of that. Whether you are a coach or, or even a product, um, a product based business, it doesn’t matter. Like you still are involved somewhere along the way. And for a lot of people listening, and for most of us, it’s usually just us and maybe a very small team, maybe one other person. And there’s still gonna be things in our businesses that only we can do. And it’s again, you know, deciding, like we were talking about earlier, like, what does that look like for us as individuals? What’s important? What does success look like? And it’s okay that it changes and we can check in with it on a frequent basis because we’re not the same. I’m not the same person I was a year ago, two years ago. And so it’s okay that those things evolve as well. And like, how many I have to give on any given any given day, week, or month could also change, um, because life changes. No, I think, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:33:27):

And we change and grow and evolve. Yeah. A hundred percent

Speaker 1 (28:09):

Yes, absolutely. So we’ve kind of touched on perfection and we’ve touched on energy and, and the that we have to give. And I know that in kind of both of these areas when we are talking about this, one of the things that I’ve been exploring more recently within my own work is our relationship with failure and how failure and quitting has been presented to us, and then how this can keep us from actually doing the things we really wanna do. Right? So these challenges are just part of entrepreneurship. There is, there are things that happen to most people. It’s, there’s, there’s no surprise that so many of us have similar experiences. Part of the problem is that nobody wants to talk about it. So <laugh>, I wanna talk about it so that we all know we’re not alone, but we’re not gonna get it right all of the time. And I think there is so much beauty when we do talk about what hasn’t worked, because it’s all well and good talking, you know, seeing people talk about their six figure months and their, the things that watch for them. But knowing what actually didn’t work is so powerful. It also challenges us emotionally. Sometimes we’re unable to move past that setback. So what can we do to navigate these setbacks with more compassion and manage those potential triggers in the future?

Speaker 2 (00:37:23):

Um, I think a big thing first and you, you already touched on it, um, and I think we, we talked about it a little bit earlier in the episode too, but I think a big, big thing, and I say this as someone by the way, who’s still working for it in therapy too, is we actually need to accept that feeling, those emotions, you know, when when the failure hits, when when we are in the middle of that setback and the suck,

Speaker 2 (00:37:52):

It’s okay to feel all the things. It’s part of the human experience and it isn’t something that we should be avoiding. Um, so I think that that actually is, I think the first thing that you don’t just try and go, oh, something went wrong. Like learning from it and looking at it and reframing it as that learning opportunity I think is a really, you know, is a really good thing. And I, I definitely agree with that, but I think it is important to also talk about that, you know, it will still suck in the moment of, you know, maybe you’ve just tried to launch something and you know, had zero signups or you know, didn’t hit whatever goal you set. That still sucks. It’ll still feel like and that is okay because that is part of that experience. But then once there’s some distance or like a buffer after that, I think reframing it as that learning opportunity is a good next step.

Speaker 2 (00:39:03):

Because so often we can get into kind of this spiral of, you know, well this didn’t work and the thing before that didn’t work and it kind of gets into this failure spiral that maybe at the end of it we’re like, you know, should I really keep doing this? Should I quit? And I’m not gonna say, Oh, just think, you know, think more positively or think something different. And that’s how you manage your mind through the failures. Cuz that’s <laugh>. It’s not how it works. I wish it did, I wish it did. Um, boy <laugh>, I really wish it did sometimes, but um, it’s again, it’s actually okay for those thoughts to be there, right? So it’s actually a lot of like, you know, managing like navigating setbacks or managing our mind sounds so kind of fancy, but a lot of it is actually accepting the things as they’re going through your head as that that’s okay, there’s nothing wrong with those thoughts or there’s nothing that you need to do to get rid of them in the moment.

Speaker 2 (00:40:14):

But it’s about how we then respond to them and kind of move on from that and really leaning into the curiosity as to, you know, what is making us think these things and are they actually true and are they facts or are we trying to tell ourselves stories here with, you know, the failure with, you know, are we trying to come up with some kind of explanation in our heads that then, you know, just goes and looks for the, the stuff that it thinks that it’s is true. That may not actually be true because our bra our brains are smart little <laugh> smart little things. Cuz a lot of this sort of stuff going on is actually our brain’s way of keeping us safe as well as weird interested as that sounds. Um, so getting a lot of these thoughts out I think is in, I know you are huge on journaling, um, and I’m sure you’ll have like a, a journal bank somewhere probably of prompts, um, for situations like this.

Speaker 2 (00:41:26):

But I think I, I have, I have some <laugh> stick somewhere too, but actually practicing that kind of inquiry and figuring out why am I thinking these things will then actually lay a bit of a foundation too to then look at it as that learning opportunity that we talked about and figuring out, well, you know, if I keep, you know, and it could even be that maybe there’s a recurring pattern to your thoughts in terms of how you think about, you know, whatever goal you’ve set and how you think about failure and then that might start to shine the light on Mel. Is there, are there some tweaks I can make in terms of the expectations I set on myself or the kind of, you know, the, the kind of thoughts that I think cuz we can, you know, change the thoughts that we think cause this in our head. Uh, this is sounding really meta <laugh>, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yep. Hmm. <laugh>. Hm, <laugh> <laugh>, Yeah. Hmm. Yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (32:47):

But I, sorry. I was just gonna say, I think that so important with this is to be curious. I mean, you touched on, you know, sort of self-inquiry, and I know that’s kind of part of my framework is why I, you know, encourage journaling, um, in whatever capacity we can and want to do it, because it doesn’t have to be kind of so dear diary. It can be if that’s what you want and need. My journal for a while has been very kind of more of like, um, capturing moments and what I’m doing versus really getting into my feelings. But sometimes those feelings just happen to bubble up from me talking about what’s going on in my life. Because again, you know, that is part of who I am. And those experiences and feelings are happening at the same time. And so I think it’s so important for us to be curious because when we’re curious, we can’t be in shame. Like we can’t be judging ourselves and also being curious at the same time. Um, and I think, again, you know, nothing, none of this is necessarily easy and it’s not like you’ll flip a switch and suddenly go, Oh, I’m not gonna shame myself. I’m just gonna be curious. But I think keeping that in the back of our minds, because for the longest time, like I’ve always been very hard on myself, and it took me a really long time. You know, I didn’t know I was being really hard on myself until I started a business. And that just got worse and worse and worse. And I spiraled for years because, for so many reasons. And when I kind of came out of that business coaching bubble and started to realize that people do things differently. Not everybody does things the way that I was being taught, and that’s not the only way of doing things. And that it’s okay if I don’t feel like that’s how I want to run my business. And when you start to see those pieces, you can, you know, you, you could of course be like, I had those moments was like, how could I be so silly? Why did I fall for those things? Why did I think? But at some point I had to make a decision, Okay, I can’t keep making my, like being an enemy with myself. Like, I’m not the enemy. There is no enemy. I have to just learn from what my experiences have been. And so now it’s a case of kind of self-auditing, being curious and saying, I wonder why I’m feeling this way. <laugh>, coming back to why I was saying earlier about the last few months, feeling like time has not belonged to me. I’m like, why is that happening? What’s going on? You know? And I’m kind of looking at different places. And so it’s not happening overnight. I’m not sitting down in my journal and like getting to the end of a page and suddenly having all the answers. It’s been a process of trying to look at different areas of areas of my day and my week and my time and saying, Okay, where is this coming from? Why am I, why am I not being compassionate with myself? Why do I feel like I’m failing here or struggling? And what parts do I have full control over? And could I actually change, um, but still kind of maintain the things that are important to me, you know, my creativity and, and the joy that I get from running my business. So yeah, I think being able to, to be curious is, is really, really powerful as business owners, I mean as humans, but as business owners as well, because there’s just so many things coming out on a daily basis, um, with so much marketing and so many different people telling us what the secrets are, that it’s, you know, I call it our lens.

Speaker 2 (00:46:10):

Yeah. And they’re contradicting themselves half the time or contradicting each other even. It’s like depending on what time of day <laugh> you go on or you look at certain things, it’s like you get one messaging and then you go on three hours later and it’s like a different thing altogether. And like no wonder we, we are confused, right? Because you just don’t, there’s so much, it’s like this information overwhelm that it actually also makes it hard for us to then figure out actually what do I need? I think it’s also something we don’t necessarily learn to actually ask ourselves

Speaker 2 (00:46:50):

Whether in business or just in life full stop. And I, I see that, you know, as much as it sucks in a way <laugh>, but I see that in in my clients too. They’re like, you know, it’s actually, what do you need to be able to do? You know, what do you need? Is it that you need to, you know, and I love that that was literally the first question that you asked me is, you know, what, what do you, what do you need in this season? Or even, you know, asking ourselves that every, every day or even every week. We just don’t, it’s not something that we think of doing because it’s just not part of, you know, it’s always just this external kind of, what’s the word

Speaker 2 (00:47:35):

That’s always this external, these external goals or external sort of things, measurable things. And we’re coming back to the success part maybe too, but we’re not going, what, what do I need? Or what do I want from this experience and what would, you know, what would good look like from that point of view versus a more objective measurable thing. It actually can be a very subjective thing and that’s, we just don’t, like, it took me two years of trying to do this business thing to get to a point where I’m like, yeah, I’m, I’m okay with asking myself what I need instead of figuring out how to meet everyone else’s needs. And there’s a whole bunch of probably people pleasing to, to unfair, which you don’t have to get into. Um, that’s there as well. But I think a lot of us just don’t ask ourselves some of these questions. So I also just love and unknown, this is your show anyway, but I just love that, that your, you know, part of what you do is putting questions out there that we can ask ourselves because it’s important that we do that. Hmm.

Speaker 1 (41:02):

Mm, Yeah. What do you need? Um, became kind of a, a regular part of my journaling practice in 2020 because it was funny, I was on a call with a client, um, at the time and I was doing marketing, kind of done view work, and she is, you know, a highly sensitive person. She, um, is an empath that very much, you know, wants to run her business or just cannot run her business any other way other than from a place of feeling. And we were on a call and I could just, I don’t know, I just sensed, I was like, Whatever I had planned is not gonna work. And I just said, What do you need? And I didn’t at the time, I genuinely had no way. I was just like, that just felt like the right question. And she was like, Nobody’s ever asked me that before <laugh>. And I was really curious because I kind of left that cool thinking, Okay, this, this clearly was really, really powerful and important. And I kind of just started to look at that from the point of view. You know, we know, we, we often asked, What do you want? What do you want from your business? How much money do you want to make? Because what, how much money do you need to make? It doesn’t fit into this glorified, ambitious perception of business, which is that it doesn’t matter what you need. Don’t be realistic, dream big. I want everybody to dream as big as they possibly can. I want everybody to be as successful as possible, but at the same time, I want you to be asked, pay your bills, <laugh>, whilst you’re doing that, I want you to be able to, you know, live and have the things that you need. And I think that’s, for me, that’s been part of this journey and it’s still something that comes up frequently. And it’s why I asked you that question the beginning is because we don’t get asked what do we need? And it’s so important for us to recognize that, especially in business and especially as women as well. Like, what do we need? Because we’re often thinking, you know, you touched on people, pleaing, we’re often thinking about others and others’ needs. And that happens in our businesses as well. You know, whether whoever we are working with, whether we’re working one on one in group or whatever, we are thinking about what they need. And that’s why I think there’s like this rite of passage burnout that happens for so many of us, and especially at this time of year, because we’re not thinking about what we need. We’re just being told that we still have time. We should finish strong. We’ve still got time to achieve all those goals that we haven’t achieved yet. And that’s where that burnout out comes from, um, you know, among other places. But that’s one of the things that can lead to that kind of end of year burnout. I have really, really enjoyed today’s conversation. I’m, I’m so appreciative and grateful for you sharing with us today. Um, we are coming to the end of the episode, but as always, I do have one last question for you, and that is, what does being an entrepreneurial outlaw look and feel like for you during this season of your business?

Speaker 2 (00:52:07):

That is such a good question. And I think in line probably with the theme of sort of some of the things we’ve talked about, I think it’s, it’s doing things at my pace, which right now for various reasons is gonna be slow in, you know, what other people might perceive as slow, comfortable, maybe even comfortable. I think, ooh, I, I, I think I’m gonna go with going at a comfortable pace, um, read’s like some workout instruction <laugh>. Um, but I think that, and that looks like, and probably it also feels like resisting that pressure to have to do more, you know, to grow faster or, you know, the, the thoughts resisting the like, should I be building this, you know, big empire of whatever It’s actually, you know, cuz those thoughts still pop in every so often, even though I’m like, I wanna take this slow, I wanna go comfortable, you know, that they, they’re still there at the back of my mind and maybe eventually that, that forms part of the vision or the dream.

Speaker 2 (00:53:21):

But I think right now it’s about making fun as, you know, cliche as it sounds potentially. But at the end of the day if I, you know, dread logging in and doing this, then you know, to a certain degree what’s the point? So it is about making it fun and a joyful experience for, you know, I guess my clients too, but especially myself cuz then that shines through and what I do and, you know, helps me to, to keep, to keep going when, you know, when the, the thoughts do come in as well. So I think it’s just doing it my way.

Speaker 1 I like that, absolutely, very outlaw. And I love the word comfortable. I like that word a lot. Um, sometimes when I’m feeling crunchy with the word slow, I try to use comfortable because I’m like, slow sometimes feels just difficult for me to use, cuz I have this like, connection with, then it means lazy and I don’t like that word, so I’m like, nope. I’m, you know, comfort. I, I just like, I’m like, what’s wrong with being comfortable? We’ve been through some those last few years. <laugh>.

Speaker 2 (00:54:15):

<laugh>. Mm, exactly. And slow, it’s slow. It kind of, it still, it kind of, it implies there’s a pace to it whereas comfortable could, you know, you could actually maybe comfortable actually isn’t necessarily slow, right? But it still feels comfortable. So I like, I actually, I’m gonna use that going forward of I’m gonna retire the word slow. I’m, I’m gonna go with comfortable <laugh>. Exactly.

Speaker 1 (47:12):

Mm, yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, because I think sometimes we all have those moments where in all businesses and in life we are busier and we don’t hate it, right? There can sometimes be some joy from being busy. There can sometimes be joy in quote, spreading ourselves thin or having too much on our plate. Like sometimes there actually can be some really great, you know, I don’t know. We just, we can feel really great about that.

Speaker 2 (00:55:33):

Yeah. We’re buzz like that it, you get that, you know, it’s the, when it makes you buzzy and like excited but in that positive like in that, oh my God, I can’t wait to do all these things. When you get that kind of buzz then one I’m totally, totally with you and I think, but then to me that would still fit the comfortable kind of description to it cuz it still feels right, right? It’s, you’ve got that kind of, this is what’s meant to happen, but it’s when you kind of keep pushing for it or you keep feeling the pressure that you have to keep doing it and you have to keep doing it and you have to keep doing it that way when actually there’s something else kind of pulling you away a little bit and going, Mm, you really, you like maybe drop a ball here and drop droppable there. That’s when we need to tune in a little bit more. And, and there’s that curiosity again, um, and sort of dig into that a little bit. And that, that’s definitely been my, my recent season.

Speaker 1 And I would, I would think that in my experience, when we feel, when we feel that buzzy feeling, when we are really excited about something a everyone else can kind of sense it. Like that’s, that’s very palpable. Even online, it’s really obvious. Um, interestingly, we won’t get into this now, and I’ve talked about it before on the show, but when I stopped trying to do the things that I thought I should be doing and started doing the things I actually wanted to do, like this podcast, I was terrified because like, this is not something I’d ever done before. This isn’t something people know me for. And it was so well received because to them it made sense to me. I was scared, but also at the same time, I was so excited that you, it was like you couldn’t help but be excited about it as well because you knew that if I could be that excited about something, then it’s going to be, it’s gonna be at least interesting. There’s gonna be something coming through. And I think for me now, that’s kind of a big approach to my business, um, is would I want this? Do I want to do this? Does this excite me? Am I, am I willing to spend this amount of time working on something? Um, because I’m not willing to spend time working on something and sabotaging other areas of my business or life or giving up certain things if it’s not actually going to make me really happy and excited. There’s just, I, I don’t have, I don’t have the for that <laugh>. Yeah. So where can everyone learn more about you and your work and where can everybody connect with you?

Speaker 2 (00:58:15):

Um, so when it comes to social media, I’m most active on Instagram and my handles ns on the mind and I’m sure you’ll probably link to it anyway. Um, but I think if you start typing in nns you’ll probably start finding me. Um, I do also host my own podcast called The Rules are Made up, um, which is available wherever you’re listening to this too. Um, and um, on that show we talk about the rules or the arbitrary rules and a lot of, probably quite a, a bit a, a big chunk of it is is, um, spent talking about perfectionism too, of course. Um, but we also chat about anything else, um, that pops into my brain. Um, and I have the odd guest on there and um, I have a website where obviously you can find out about what I do and, um, my coaching services, which is um, do up, do in a level.me. Cause my comp, my business name’s actually inner level coaching cause it’s about what’s on the inside.

Speaker 1 I love that we will make sure that everything is linked in the show notes. And don’t forget that you can find a full transcript along with all of the links from today’s episode over@outlawcreatives.com slash podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. N I’m so excited to put this out into everybody’s ears. Thank you for giving your time. I really appreciate it. Bye.

Speaker 2 (00:59:49):

Thank you for having me. Bye.

Speaker 1 (00:59:57):

What a great episode. Thank you so much n for coming on, sitting down with me and chatting. Um, I know I wanna say thank you to all of my guests, especially who New Zealand, Australia. We’ve had a number of guests this season over that side of the world and, um, it’s really, it can be so tough to find times to sit down and record, um, together because eight, nine hours ahead is a lot, seems a lot more difficult than eight or nine hours behind time zones. Um, but we did it, we managed it. And I know how buzzy I often feel if I do a late recording. I’m so hyped for the conversation that it’s really difficult to wind down. So I really appreciate people giving me their time, especially perhaps time when they wouldn’t normally be working. I really appreciate that. I know how much, um, how much our energy and time is, is just so important.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):

So thank you for that. Um, and yeah, I, I am really excited because we have a few more episodes left before we round out this season. And as I shared with you just a few weeks ago, um, we will be taking a pause from podcasting, um, after this season. And I say a pause because the more and more I think about it, I know that podcasting is still in my future, but I need to take a breather. I need to take some time to figure out what’s next for the podcast and what kind of podcast I really want to create, what kind of content I want to record and how I want that to look. I love podcasting. I’ve said it so many times, audio recording, audio even video is really my thing. Um, and it was just, is kind of strange because as an introvert and somebody who often lacks confidence in certain areas, I’m a chatty person, <laugh>, it’s not, it’s not hard for me to find things to talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):

And I think it makes it that much easier when I know that I have you all sitting listening or you know, wherever you are listening. And also knowing that, um, I’m talking about something I’m passionate about. And I think that’s a thing. I’m still incredibly passionate about business. I’m still incredibly passionate about being a business owner, but the last couple of years we can’t deny have been incredibly hard. There have been some silver linings, I will totally acknowledge that. But it has been tough. And I think that difficulty, that struggle has really reflected, you know, where I’ve been in my business for the last guess probably year. Um, I think 2020 was a bit of a whirlwind and we’d only just started podcasting towards the end of that year. So, you know, last year particularly was really hard for me on a business and personal level.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):

And I think a lot of that carried on into 2022. My business looks so different to what it did just two years ago when we started podcasting. Of course my way of business is still very, very similar. I’m still outlawing as much as possible, but at the same time the type of things I’m doing are very different and they may not be the same things that you originally came here for. Um, and I know that, you know, that’s, that’s really tough. Again, as somebody who is a people pleaser, that’s really tough for me to acknowledge because I, you know, want to continue getting to know you all. I want to continue having these conversations. So even though we will be pausing recording and publishing episodes, um, for the foreseeable future, I will still be hanging out online. Um, you can still join our Patreon. Um, so I’m still gonna be recording episodes for our Paton community, the Outlaw Collective.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):

There’ll be two episodes per month. Um, and of course we will also be having conversations over there deepening our journaling practice, talking business, um, all sorts. And it’s such a great community to connect in. We just experienced a new moon of solar eclipse in Scorpio here. So Scorpio is known to be very spacey. So if you are, um, looking for some additional journal prompts each month, um, looking for kind of that anchor point in your business and support where you can really take that time to check in with yourself. I know it can be so hard because we’re so busy, especially this time of year, um, consider coming over and, and having a look at what we’re doing over in Patreon. Um, even though the New Moon will at times of recording this will have happened on Tuesday, you can still experience that energy. That energy will still be around, especially being a solar eclipse.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):

Eclipse season has a lot more energy, um, with it as well. So yeah, come over, check out. We have our new moon inform recordings. Um, I do post about the, the kind of a zodiac season we’re in as well and the energy to expect and kind of the vibe. And I also do Oracle readings during those new and full moons. Um, I share those as well. So come over, check us out. You can join us for as, as low as eight pounds a month. Um, that is the minimum pledge. And of course you will get a thank you note from me, um, a sticker in the post along with those bonus episodes. And those episodes are all, once you join us, you’ll get access to our, um, private podcasting feed and you’ll be able to access all previous episodes as well. So you’ll also be able to access all of our previous journal prompts, um, and just really get a vibe for what we are doing. Um, so that is it for today’s episode. Again, thank you to needs for coming on the show. Uh, thank you so much to all of you for listening and for being here. Um, and we will continue putting out these episodes over the coming, coming weeks and I am really looking forward to kind of rounding this out with a big episode as we finish in November. So thank you so much for listening. Until next time, outlaws.