About the Episode

Welcome to episode 38 of Entrepreneurial Outlaws! Today on the show we are joined by Productivity Strategist, podcaster, and creator of Publish with Purpose, Sarah Steckler.

I joined Publish with Purpose to publish the Outlaw Journal. If you’re an avid listener of the show, you know my history with paid courses and memberships, so at the start I was nervous. But I knew that I trusted Sarah and Publish with Purpose met all of my wildest expectations and more. I was able to step out of my comfort zone in a really wonderful way. I made connections that I wouldn’t have otherwise made, but most importantly, I published the Outlaw Journal in 60 days. I’m so excited for you to hear more about Sarah, her business, and Publish with Purpose on the show today.

We’re also talking about Sarah’s approach to mindful productivity, “creative nesting” to help you feel inspired, and how to regularly create time in your business to do the deep work. Plus, you’ll hear what it means to Sarah to be an Entrepreneurial Outlaw, which is something that I think you’ll love. 

So, grab your journal and let’s dig into slow business and scaling your business in a mindful way together.

Topics discussed in episode #38

Topics Discussed:

  • How to approach productivity mindfully and warning signs to look out for when we’re not
  • How productivity can look different working from home vs. working in the corporate world
  • Taking time off from your business in a way that it’s a critical part of your work
  • Using “creative nesting” to help you feel fulfilled and inspired in your business
  • Giving yourself permission to ask “what if” and play with your creative ideas
  • How to actually create time for the deep work within your business on regular schedule
  • A bit about Sarah’s course, Publish to Purpose, and why she loves the Outlaw Journal
  • What it means to be an entrepreneurial outlaw to Sarah

About Sarah:

Sarah Steckler is a Productivity Strategist who helps entrepreneurs learn how to use Mindful Productivity in their life and business to reach their goals and stay productive without hustle culture.

Episode Resources:

Connect with Melanie here:



Melanie (03:22):

Welcome to Entrepreneurial Outlaws, Sarah. I'm so excited to have you on the show today and to be able to have this conversation with you.

Sarah (03:45):

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Melanie (03:48):

It's going to be really, I think it's going to be juicy and some new ways of thinking about these topics as well. So for anyone listening, who is unaware of what you do, would you just take a couple of moments to introduce yourself? Tell us a bit about what you do your business. Yeah. And then we'll get into in today's conversation. Yeah,

Sarah (04:11):

Absolutely. My name is Sarah Steckler and I am a productivity strategist who focuses on mindful productivity, which is really about bringing more intention and awareness to your current mental state and your energy capacity. And with that, I help entrepreneurs organize and streamline their business and produce epic planners. So I do a multitude of things in my business, but ultimately my goal is to help creatives know that they do not have to jump into an endless hustle and burnout constantly in order to be successful in their business.

Melanie (04:48):

Yes. And I am very much here for that. I think the more and more I've leaned into to identifying as a creative entrepreneur, because I didn't always identify as a creative entrepreneur. The more I've realized this need for mindfulness and slowing down something I was always walking on, but there feels like there's more of a need for that when you're being so creative in your business. So I wanted to talk a little bit and just start off by talking a little bit about productivity and really understanding the way in which you approach productivity mindfully and what kind of red flags or what indicates to con what can indicate to us as individuals that we are approaching productivity mindlessly.

Sarah (05:39):

Ooh, this is a great question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me a question quite in this frame. So I think when I think about mindfulness or just not doing something mindlessly, it's really bringing awareness right. And bringing intention to our action. And the first thing I'll is I think there's a lot of pressured performative product productivity, where we feel like we always need to be working, or we need to let other people know that we're doing this much in our business or we're working this long. So there's that weird kind of perfectionist, for lack of a better term type of productivity that we can feel pressured. And there's external things, societal things that can pressure us in that way. And when we feel that way, sometimes that can lead to that mindlessness that you're talking about. So kind of, you know, things that people talk about, like being busy for the sake of being busy, right.

Sarah (06:32):

Really not having a guided sense of direction when you're working on something or a guided sense of even your energy level when you're working on something. So for example, in the beginning of my business, I was always busy. I was always working. I was never sleeping, but I wasn't actually getting much done. I didn't really see a whole lot of revenue in the first year of my business. Wasn't really seeing much of anything happening, but I knew I was working, but I know I was being busy and, but not necessarily productive in terms of managing my energy and actually getting moving the needle towards what I actually wanted to accomplish.

Melanie (07:11):

Yes, I, I was exactly the same. I was writing about this the other day. And that was that for that phase in my business where I went from corporate to full-time entrepreneur. And I just thought that going into being fully my own boss, that this would be incredible. And I would be able to be so productive and I'd have all this time and I'll be able to do so much. I was so busy doing nothing. I found myself, it would get to Friday. And I, and if somebody said to me, what did you do? I have no idea. I have no idea why I did this week. Maybe I posted on social media. I don't know. And it felt I was, I really disliked that feeling because my days had been sort of structured previously, but it was, it was so interesting that it felt so hard to do it for myself.

Melanie (08:03):

It felt easy when someone else was. And I didn't like it when someone else was telling me how my business will, how to run my day. But the moment I had to do it for myself, it was, it was really, it was really weird because I'm pretty organized for the most part, but it was like, I lost all sense of being able to organize myself and organize my time. And I found myself going from one extreme to the other. So I would try and organize everything. And then it would be like, oh, I hate this. I'd go back to doing nothing. And I don't know if you see this a lot with other people as well, because it was just this really trying to find that middle ground and navigate. That was very confusing. At first,

Sarah (08:45):

When I think too, you start with the framework of, I have to be working nine to five or eight or nine hours a day. If that's where you're coming from, like that's where I was coming from. Same kind of thing. And then you go, well, how do I fit my creative mind and my business into an eight hour day at home when my life is completely dead. I mean, working from home is completely different as we all know by now. And so there was always this pressure when really I realized over time that I didn't, I wasn't going to be working the same way at home. It wasn't going to be you're at a desk and you'll have no distractions and other people will be around you doing the same thing. It's completely different. So I think it's weird. It's like trying to fit a creative process into a nine to five structure and it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work for some entrepreneurs. It might, but for me it just wasn't working. So when I wasn't seeing results working more than eight hours a day at home, I was always like, is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with my business? Like, what am I doing? Like, I, I felt very, very similar.

Melanie (09:48):

Yeah. I liked the, I liked what you just said about, you know, we're taking, we're taking something that is very individual because even though if we all work from home, it can look different. Cause it depends on your lifestyle. Depends on what responsibilities you have and, and what you have to do in that day, as well as the type of business model you have and how much, how many different tasks you could be working on. And I think that has such an impact in the way in which we can run our business, but also what our schedule or, you know, having those times where we are leaning more into our creative work or we're doing client work or coaching or whatever it may be. And one of the, I remember hearing this phrase a few years ago now, and it was from someone who, I guess she is an entrepreneur, but she was very much about, she was advocating for working moms and trying to ensure that they had more benefits and more ability or capability to manage that time and employment.

Melanie (10:57):

And she said, you know, I work full time, but I don't work nine to five. And that always stood out to me because I was like, yes, that is exactly it. Like as entrepreneurs, you may end up working eight hour days, there may be days when you only work four hours or sometimes we work more and it really depends on the season of a business, but then being able to actually be productive during that time is, is, as you said, was so important because that allows for us to move the dial or actually grow up business or feel like we're making some kind of headway with what we're doing.

Sarah (11:34):

Oh, I love that. You just said that it depends on the season of your business. Like I'm over here, like nodding my head because that's so true. And I think for a long time, maybe I'm sure other people listening might identify with this too. You can almost like we have all these different metrics that we measure our business, you know, our revenue, our connection serve community, all these different, but in the back of my mind, sometimes there's still, well, how long are you working for? Or how hard are you working? And it's still, that's still something that I grapple with all the time. And one thing I, I recently realized it took me so many years, but I recently realized that like fall, for example, is a busy season in my business. Like that is a time when I always end up working longer hours and I'm in like my creative flow state and I get a lot of things done.

Sarah (12:19):

So like course creation and like content updates for my courses. That that is the time of year when that happens. Like if I want to create something or if I want to like batch record a bunch of podcast episodes, that's the season and I'm always working more. And so I no longer feel guilty about that, right. Because I think too, we can feel guilty about working longer hours because we're in a season. So understanding that about yourself and like how your business works. And I also love that you said you know, that she or that woman said that she's a full-time entrepreneur, but she's not necessarily working nine to five that really identify, I really identify with that as well, because there are definitely days and sometimes like a week where there's not a whole lot of me time in front of my computer, but there's me going on longer walks and really thinking about my business model or, you know, doing other things that aren't necessarily tangibly moving the needle in my business that day or that week. But it's that creative think time that really actually makes me more productive in the long run.

Melanie (13:24):

Yes. Which is a beautiful segue into slow business, which I want to explore with you. So I introduced this earlier on, but you and I have both recorded, we don't link to both the episodes in the show notes, but we have both recorded episodes recently where we have talked, we've talked about slow business. I definitely didn't call it slow business. And you called it creative nesting. And it was so interesting listening to you episode because you were talking about just that about taking time off or way from your business, but not, you're not stepping away and, and ignoring what you're doing or it's not even maybe necessarily a vacation. It is still part of our work, but it's that creative time that we need to slow down step back review and reflect so that we can actually then kind of bounce back or step back into what we're doing.

Melanie (14:24):

And it feels so much more aligned and in flow. And it's really a great time to address what may be working or not working within our businesses. So slow business. I think I I've been doing this unintentionally. I didn't know that was what I was doing. And then I've had people talking about it and I was like, oh, this is, this is kind of what I've been doing. And it sounds wonderful and it sounds beautiful. And I'm like, yeah, that's exactly how I want to be doing my business. But I'm also, again, coming back to that season thing, I'm like, this is how I want to do business right now last year, that was not how I did business. My business was very fast and I burnt out and I'm like, okay. So I've learned my lessons from that experience. This is the season I'm in now. So in your episode where you talked about creative nasty and you discussed and explored that, can you share with us what creative nesting is?

Sarah (15:16):

Yeah. And well, and one thing that's so interesting about how we both kind of land. I love that we both landed on this at the same time, and we've done that with multiple things. It's just really cool to see. And one thing I did when I recorded the episode was I hadn't quite like I had this idea of what creative nesting might look like in my business and I'd kind of been doing it, but the episode two is more of like an exploration of like maybe what it could be. So it was this experimental kind of conversation that I was having with my audience listening. And really for me, how I was kind of defining it as I was playing with, it was, you know, this is a time where, you know, similar to how people like authors go on solo, writing retreats or something.

Sarah (16:00):

It's, it's something where you're carving out time for creativity in your business, but also time for the things that maybe you really love doing in your business, but that don't bring you in revenue per se, like that day or, or drive the needle where you needed to go in terms of maybe some of your bigger goals, but they really, those kinds of little tasks or projects really inspire you. They make you feel connected to your business. They make you want to show up. They, and these could be things like consuming content too. Like, you know, not just creating, but also consuming or doing things in your business that like really roundabout things. Like, I mean, I'm talking for me, I'll give you some examples, like creative nesting for me, or projects within that for me and my business could be things like really stepping into the aesthetic side of my brand, really feeling like, what is my brand?

Sarah (16:57):

What do I want it to look like? What I want it to feel like, like if I was walking into a room in my business, what do I want that room to look like? So every time I walk in there, I'm like, oh yeah, this is good. This is good. And those things don't, those are the things that people tell you, you know, don't do those things. Don't focus on those things. Just make money, you know, but there is something about those things that makes you feel comfortable. It's like putting on a really nice outfit before you go out or, you know, just feeling really like, nice. Like sometimes too, like before I get on zoom meetings, I'll put on perfume. No one's to,

Sarah (17:32):

No, I do that too. And I

Melanie (17:37):

Find myself like brushing my teeth and putting on some perfume. And then, I mean, I put lipstick on and then I'm like, no one can smell me. No one can, I could like, not brush my teeth all day and no one's going to know, but it's this weird. Like it just kind of prepares me.

Sarah (17:54):

That's kind of what I think part of how I'm defining it or feeling into it is like that's part of what a slow businesses or creative nesting is doing those things that maybe no one else is going to know about or realize, but that make you feel confident in how you show up in your business.

Melanie (18:11):

Yeah. I really resonate with that. Especially the part where you were talking about the tasks that maybe dorms don't necessarily deliver an ROI or do move the dial, or don't necessarily bring in money. For example, as you were saying, like, you know, a static and, and your brand I imagine your brand would be like, I imagine if there was a room, it would be like your office cherishes her office on Instagram. So I feel like that. And I feel like you do that very well, so, you know, you've done it, so that's great. But I feel, I really understand how that's, how that can feel for us as individuals, because as you said, it can look different for each of us. The things that inspire us, the things that we do that allow us to feel creative, even within our businesses, the things that excite us or we enjoy, you know, I know that some people hate being in Canberra and like Canberra is my happy place where I can just create really beautiful graphics. But it's different for each of us. So what kind of things, what inspires you? So when you, if you would taking that time, if you were doing that kind of singer songwriter retreats, what would you be doing each day to get inspired?

Sarah (19:32):

I think a big part of it is giving myself permission to play with all the ideas that I have that may not ever actually become products. But I actually give myself permission to think about, well, what if, what if you created for more planners or what if you created a whole new podcast or what if you decided to write a blog post series on this? And I know like knowing that in the back of my head right now, one, I don't necessarily have time for those things or two, like it wouldn't lead to anything, right? It wouldn't, it wouldn't lead to an offer that would lead to this, you know, and like all these narratives that I have in my head. But giving myself permission to play with those things, what I find actually happens is the more I make room for that, those things actually give me ideas for how to improve other things in my business.

Sarah (20:21):

Like I saw, I recently went on a trip to a cabin with my husband. It was like our first time leaving the house in a while. And it was so nice. We were out in nature and I was thinking about this other course I create, could create, or this other journal. And what it made me realize was all of these ways that I could improve some of my like current offerings, like how I might be able to gamify something or other resources I might be able to make for students that would help them understand the content. So doing that was one thing that ultimately helped me circle back to what my main intention is in my business. And I didn't think that it would, I thought that for, I thought that I really had to restrict myself and, you know, be really hard on myself and it'd be really structured. Like, no, you, you only have room for this creative project and having room to kind of explore that actually was really liberating.

Melanie (21:15):

Yeah. And I love that. I love the fact that by allowing yourself to explore and, and, and just dream about those other things that may be on a practical level, you don't have time for helped you identify how you could actually bring some of that back into what you're already doing, which I also feel like comes full circle back to what we were talking about initially about productivity and mindfulness with your productivity. Cause it feels like that being able to do that, being able to not get completely sidetracked with a new project also feels like it comes back to that mindfulness of that focus point of knowing what you're doing in your business and knowing what your focus projects are, what your, what, the, the things in your business that you really want to continue putting out and continue creating and delivering. But I love the idea of being able to step away and just see things from a different perspective, which it sounds like that was exactly what it was.

Sarah (22:19):

And, and I will say, you know, as an aside, I will note that I don't know that I would have had this amount of creative Liberty, if you will, in the beginning stages of my business before I was making the income I needed to make, right. Like part of this definitely is available to me because I have students making recurring payments and like income coming into my business. That that makes me feel, you know definitely a little bit more safe and playing around with that. So I think there's kind of that balance, right? Like, I, I definitely there's like the reality of it versus what might, may or may not be available to you in your business. So I definitely just want to touch on that too, because I'm not saying that we should all just do what we want, regardless of maybe things that may impact our business. I hope we get one. It, what, I mean a

Melanie (23:10):

Hundred percent, I think another example of that for, for me this year has been which we're going to get into in a little bit, but Sarah helped me publish the at-will journal and heading into 2021. I knew that this was something I wanted to work. And I knew this was something that was going to require a decent amount of my creative brain and also just trying to work through any books that came up. And I also wanted to commit to the course. So what I did was, again, I was in a position where I was able to slow down in other ways within my business. And I was able to look at my finances and say, okay, I can step back in these ways to give myself the space, to be able to work on this project. And yeah, I think very similarly, it's not something I would have been able to do when I first started my business. Because I think when we first stop either we're still learning or we're trying to figure out exactly what that business looks like. But I think for both of us, we're at the point in our businesses where it's, it's fairly established, we know what we're doing. We know we're still figuring out and processing sun pots of business, but we have enough of a foundation that we are able to kind of move forward with these, these creative ideas.

Melanie (24:28):

So for anyone listening, who maybe can't take a trip right now for whatever reason, COVID or non COVID related, what ways do you feel like we can tap into that retreat vibe and create that alone time for the deep work?

Sarah (24:48):

I love this question because that's another part of it too. I was really thinking about is how do I make this a recurring ritual, maybe even weekly in my business. That's not a one-off, oh, I've gotten to this point where I can't stand it anymore. Now I need to go be away from my house and do this thing, which is not always attainable. So really thinking about creative ways to bring this into your business on a more regular basis. And so, and it can be the simplest of things. And I think there's something to be said about being in a different location or being able to work somewhere else. I can not wait to go back to a coffee shop and work, but I think that, you know, some of the simplest ways that I've been trying to integrate more of this time can even mean, you know, setting a boundary in my, in my life at home.

Sarah (25:40):

So even like on a Sunday, maybe I tell my husband that I want, you know, a couple hours in my office and I don't want to be bothered, which for us, at this point we don't have kids. It means him taking care of our extremely high maintenance bulldog. So don't let her come in here. I need some time. And then it's really just, I will go, I will literally go to YouTube and find like a playlist for me lately. It's been like work jazz or just all these different there's like coffee shop, aesthetic playlist. You can look up it's wild. And so putting something on like that, where I can kind of trick my brain into feeling like I'm in a different atmosphere, a different place, like changing up what I'm hearing and then really making a cozy space in my office. So, and if you don't have an office, you could create this, you know, in another space in your home, but even just like getting a cup of coffee and clearing off my desk, which seems to be an ongoing problem for me.

Sarah (26:39):

So it's right now, it's completely cluttered with journals. So, but anyway, just even creating a space for yourself, similar to what you might do, if you were going to do, you know, yoga at home, you would clear space for your yoga mat, right? Like do that for taking time in your business and start by doing something that you might not normally do. If you normally plopped down on your chair and start working on your computer, maybe take time to open a journal and start a stream of consciousness, or do a brain dump and ask yourself maybe for the first time in a long time, what would bring me creative joy, my business right now? What are some of the things that I would love to explore or think about or work on without the pressure of you need to, you know, grow your email list or you need to make money, or you need to do this. And how can you begin to explore that?

Melanie (27:30):

I love that. I love that still. I did not know that you could get these kinds of playlists on YouTube, by

Sarah (27:38):

The way. Yeah. So I have this whole thing. And I actually, I got this idea from Jason and Caroline's look over at wandering aimlessly. They have this page on their website and I think they got it from someone else. So you'll have to look, but they have a now page. And so they basically write down like what they're kind of working on at any given time. And I was like, oh, that's fun. So I made one on my website and like every week I put up a new, what am I listening to on YouTube playlist over there? So it's like, it's like coffee, Jack coffee, ask Jay how's jazz. Or there was one, it was like, you're at a beach in a coffee shop. And there's like these like birds in the background. And I don't know. They're really fun.

Melanie (28:15):

I love that. I think that's really, I think that's really nice because sometimes it can be really difficult to find the right kind of music. And I have a tendency just to listen to the radio, but that can also be very distracting sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad ways. Sometimes I'll be sitting there and be like, what was I writing? And I, I really liked the idea of creating that space. I mean, I think most of us probably can identify with the desk situation. It's like on a Monday it's super clean. And then by the weekend, like I can't find a pen. But just those kind of simple routines and being able to create that space for you to, you know, as you said, write or journal and, and really think about what it is that you want to be able to do creatively.

Melanie (29:05):

And I love the idea of sitting down with John or there's something about I often when I'm feeling really, I don't want to call it right to this book, but whenever I'm feeling uncertain of how to, when I can feel the creativity isn't there, sometimes it just takes a journal prompt or sitting down and writing what I think my audience might want to wait, might need from me right now, or whatever it might be can really help us to unblock whatever it is that's happening, wherever, whatever it is, and it's creatively, or maybe we're afraid of something. And it can just help us to kind of get through that and move. And then we find some kind of creative inspiration from that.

Sarah (29:46):

Yeah. That's such an outlaw moment too. Like what do I need really tapping into what's going on in my internal world and looking at a journal page and starting from there. I really, really love that. Yes, very outlook.

Melanie (30:03):

Well, speaking of outlaw. So as I said earlier, Sarah's program publisher Pappas is the program that I joined at the end of last year, after a long time of procrastinating on this idea of creating a journal now, and with your help, with the course and your life calls, I was able to publish my journal in 60 days. As I said, there were some ways in which I set this up purposefully so I could do it. It wasn't magic. I was, I didn't just do nothing else for 60 days, but I was very sad and I wanted to do this. So I know that I've had people say to me, I really want to do this too. I'd love this idea. And I always like, then let's do it, go do it, go join group. Learn more about the course. So can you share with everyone a little bit more about publisher Pappas? Cause I know you also have a workshop as well. And when this goes live, I believe you'll be the getting ready full or in the process of launching that's

Sarah (31:09):

True. Yes. So we do, we do two live rounds a year and those are what I call 60 day sprints. So those during those eight weeks, two times a year, we have live weekly calls inside the program. So publish on purpose essentially is a course that helps you create format and self-publish your own journal or planner or workbook on Amazon in 60 days or less, however, right. Some people take more or less time. And that's where the mindful productivity piece comes in. So we have built in implementation weeks inside the program where there that's really a time for you. Like, I'm not saying there's more content or go to this. It's, let's take a break from digesting, what's inside the course and let's work on your journal. And I mean, as you know, that's the bulk of it, right? Like actually creating the journal yourself.

Sarah (32:00):

So this isn't a program where I'm doing it for you. You're definitely doing the work to create it, but it's in a space where you're surrounded by other creative entrepreneurs. And what's so cool is that we have people in there that are like therapists. We have people in there that we haven't a woman that recently created a journal for kids. So there's a big variety, but I feel like that helps like tap into all these different creative ideas. So, and I know a lot of people gain, a lot of our students gained a lot of insight here in your process, as you were creating your outlaw journal. So it's a really, really fun program. And there's everything just like any course, right? Like you could spend searching for things online, or if you want a container that's organized and gives you, step-by-step what you need then that's, that's the program for you.

Melanie (32:49):

Yeah. So first of all, I wanted to say the community side of things. It is, it was really, I mean it is, but it was, and it will continue to be really, really I'm looking forward to the next sprint. But it was what I really loved about it was that we did have people from all different backgrounds, different careers, full-time entrepreneurs, part-time entrepreneurs, ever, everybody in anything and people who were all different stages in business and different stages in building a brand or building or figuring out what they wanted to publish. It was really, really great because also the thing I found was everyone, first of all, everyone was really supportive. And secondly, you would get ideas from people who you maybe never would have met. Like there's people in there who maybe I would never have met online. If I hadn't been a pause, published repurpose and their ideas and their feedback and stores were really, really wonderful. Because sometimes w we can never see our own stuff. We can't see the wood for the trees. And also, yes, it is one of the most organized, well thought out and organized courses I have ever done. Like,

Sarah (34:02):

I'm so glad to hear that. I always feel like it's not organized enough. So it is

Melanie (34:07):

No, it is so organized. And there is so many things. And, you know, I'm, I'm just going to say this, there are so many things where you have thoughts. You've really thought about us as individuals and the questions we might have. It's like, you thought about it before we have it. So like, I'm somebody who tends to jump ahead and I'm like, well, what about this? I'm like, oh, of course Sarah's already answered it. So it's, it's that, that, that was impresses me. I'm always like, if someone can sit that, and especially when you consider time changes, because most people don't and me being on a different time zone, I'm always like, what time, when is it changing? So that meant a lot to me as well.

Sarah (34:44):

For sure. Well, and I lived overseas for a while and when I was in Italy and the, like, the time changed, like differently, like there was a two week gap where we were like an hour ahead or whatever, from the states before the states got there. And I was like, how do people chord it? How do people coordinate this? This is wild. So I have

Melanie (35:01):

A thing on my phone, which has like three different times zones, just so I can keep up because otherwise yeah. It's, it's crazy.

Sarah (35:08):

Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I also do. I know, like you're interviewing me, but

Sarah (35:14):

Like, I wanna

Sarah (35:15):

Like talk about your outlaw journal too, because it's, it was so fun. Like just being in there and like, I guess I'm just touching back on something else you said, which was you, we gained so much from everyone inside a community. And I think sometimes we feel like if we're not, you know, further along in business or if we're not, you know, ahead of the game that not going to contribute, but some of the most helpful suggestions inside of the course and on the calls are from people that haven't even started their business yet, or, you know, they're brand new to this stuff. And there's something to be said about that, like new newness to things that brings in creative ideas that maybe seasoned business owners haven't thought about in a long time. So I really liked that overlap. And what I love too is I'm always learning from all of you too, in the course, I'm always like, oh my gosh, that's such a great idea. Like, I always have to take notes like during our calls. And it's just so fun. And it really reminds me that in business, I think there's more creative Liberty when we take away this like expert too. I mean, obviously I'm teaching the course, but when I just take away that life, I I'm the only one that knows anything. You know what I mean? Where I feel like you sometimes get that in courses and it can be frustrating. Yeah.

Melanie (36:34):

There's, there's less of a hierarchy. And I think that, I think that's what more and more people are craving. I know I've certainly been craving that. I know that's telling me what I've been trying to deliver in my own work. And there was actually, it's funny that you brought up the the kind of seasoned entrepreneur and, and new business owners who haven't kind of necessarily been through. And I don't want to say the bring up, but you know what I mean? They haven't read through all that price for us

Sarah (36:59):


Melanie (37:01):

I promise you it's worth it. But I remember that we were having a conversation very similar to that on one of the cools. And I remember I said something and I don't remember who it was, but we were like, oh, that's a good quote for Instagram. And I still haven't used it. So, you know, maybe by the time this goes out, I will have already used it. But we very, it was very much around the idea that like, once you have been through business for a while, you have to start leaving your ego at the door because you think, you know, more than you actually, sometimes you have to just step back and look at it from like, as if you don't know anything, because that's the easiest way to do it sometimes.

Sarah (37:35):

Oh, it's so true. I know. And sometimes people like in general will ask me questions where I'm like, oh, that's really the, at first I'm like, oh, that's really basic, really obvious. And then I think about it more, or something's changed, right. Something that I've learned five years ago is completely different now. And I have to really like check myself and be like, oh, okay. That's totally different. I need to read up on that. Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie (37:58):

Yeah. It's, it's always changing. And I think, especially from like you, I think it changes quicker than it did when we first started up businesses. It feels like it, but yeah, all the time. Okay. I feel like I need a drum roll. I need some kind of sound effect, but I don't have it, but we're coming to the end of this episode.

Sarah (38:16):

No, [inaudible]

Melanie (38:24):

But I wanted to do a rapid fire round of questions with you a little bit of fun before we get into kind of finishing and wrapping up. So are you ready? Yes.

Sarah (38:36):

Hey, for

Melanie (38:37):

You, like, what are your favorite social media platform?

Sarah (38:42):

Right now, I I'd say it's, it's still Instagram, but I love consuming content more on tick-tock.

Melanie (38:47):

Okay. Oh, sideline. Oh, we'll get to that a second actually. Cause I was going to bring that up. That could pave it back on digital

Sarah (38:56):

For books or planning or both or,

Melanie (38:59):

Oh books fast.

Sarah (39:02):

I'm still a paperback person, I think for both. Yeah. Yeah. And planning as well. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Tik TOK or reels take doc.

Melanie (39:12):

So my was going to say is Sarah does really great rails. The one way you threw water at yourself.

Sarah (39:19):

I was committed. I know. Yeah. I only had one chance

Sarah (39:22):

And I feel like I got it. So he did really well. Planners or journals planners. Well, she tables, stickers, stickers.

Melanie (39:34):

Ooh, new cost smell or writing in a planner for the first time.

Sarah (39:41):

I'll go with the planner one. But I will say that there's sometimes a bit of anxiety still about that. It's like, oh my God.

Melanie (39:47):

Right. That like first thing where it's like, you put your name or whatever it was, I'm like, I'm going to screw this up. I'm going to forget how to write my name.

Sarah (39:54):

Like, people are scared to not have perfect handwriting in their planners. And so that's a whole other conversation, but yeah,

Melanie (40:00):

I just had a brilliant idea. We should do a planet where it's like, there's some kind of like fool on the first page. So it can be like, look I after this up. So therefore you don't have to worry.

Sarah (40:12):

Oh, I like that.

Melanie (40:14):

Okay. Thank you so much for today's conversation. I have loved chatting with you about slow business and productivity and just diving a little bit deeper into these similarities and parallels between, you know, really what I keep describing as like artistry, you know, being a creative and also looking at the ways in which that can support our businesses. But there is one question that I have to ask every guest and that is what does it mean to be an entrepreneurial outlook in your own business?

Sarah (40:49):

Ooh, this is good. I think for me it means running a business model that I love, even if it's not what's necessarily going to make me more money faster. And I know that's a weird thing to say. Cause I think we all obviously want, we would like to right. Make more money, but if I don't feel creatively inspired by my business, then to me, it wouldn't be worth making, you know, six times the income if I, if I hated every moment of it. So it's like, there's that balance for me? And that's where I feel like I'm an outlaw.

Melanie (41:28):

Yeah, definitely. And I think so much of, and I've said this to you before, about how so much of how you approach your business. It feels very outlawed to me. And you know, I don't, I don't, I do not understand how people can run a business. I mean, I get that, we'll go through that phase of business where we're like, I'm not, I'm not liking this so much, but to pop asleep, do something that feels very uncomfortable. I couldn't imagine doing that. So I agree with you a hundred percent that I think my business model or whatever I'm doing has to feel good. And I feel like as well, sometimes you will figure out how to make that income. I know in my own business I've found that if it feels really good, I will figure out the way of making the income from it because I'm more willing to talk about it. I'm more willing to show up for it than something I don't like.

Sarah (42:18):

Absolutely. I know. Ironically, my business grows the more I really give myself that permission.

Melanie (42:24):

Yeah. That's a good lesson. Preferably an outlaw moment in itself. Okay. Thank you so much for coming on the show before we wrap up. Can you tell everybody where they can find more about you about the podcast and also how they can learn more about publisher purpose?

Sarah (42:46):

Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for having me on the show. This was really fun. I love talking with you. I hang out on Instagram a lot. I'm at mindful productivity blog over there and I run the mindful productivity podcast that you can find pretty much anywhere. And if you're interested in learning how to publish your own planner we have an on demand training over@publishaplanner.com and you can learn more about the course you, whether or not you choose to enroll that that class is going to help you understand how self publishing works and some of the errors I've made along the way. But yeah, I definitely recommend checking it out.

Melanie (43:24):

I love that. Yes. Perfect. And we will link to everything in the show notes. So you will be able to just go ahead and click over follow Sarah. I listened to the podcast and we'll link to the episodes that Sarah recorded around creative nesting and restorative behaviors as well. But thank you so much. It's been so good to speak to you and have this conversation and I will speak to you again soon. Thank you.